Tree of Savior Forum

[Suggestion] Unlock Rank 1 Class Limitations

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#1

Problem :head_bandage:

Many of the high performance, popular or meta(Korean) builds revolve around accessing the understandably powerful Circle 3 skills of various classes. A great example would be the extremely popular Wiz3/Ele3/WL build.

The problem here is that builds which take the limited Rank 1 option right through to Circle 3, can then gain a second Circle 3 class and a powerful Rank 7 class. To see the imbalance here think of this comparison:

B1: Wiz1/Pyro3/Ele3
B2: Wiz3/Ele3/WL (formatting should become clear in a moment)

Both options get two good C3 choices in their build, but B1 is stuck with absolutely useless Wizard skills, whereas B2 gets comparatively incredibly skills from C1 Warlock.

C1 Rank 1 options are nowhere near as powerful as C1 Rank 7 options. The imbalance is colossal.

You might think that this only applies to builds emphasizing purity, and that a diverse range of low circle classes could perform quite well, thus invalidating the emphasis on this being a balance improvement - however that’s not the case, as is evident from a quick glance at this thread, which shows from player experience that the worst thing you can do for your build is 7 C1 options, or often no C3 options. This actually does benefit diversity too, as I’ll explain.

At max level the C1 Wiz skills are entirely useless. You could argue Earthquakes knock-up is a nice filler for pvp, the knockback of energy bolt is ok for positioning targets and the two debuffs are better than nothing, but here’s the real problem: you only have a limited amount of time in your rotation. Unless you’re lucky enough to have utility based situational/responsive skills in your Rank 1 C1 option, then they will rarely ever make it into your rotation, as good skills from your upper rank choices will be back off cooldown before you need to resort to the terrible pickings from C1 R1.

Suggestion :nerd:

My suggestion is that Rank 1 should not be restricted to simply Circle 1 Wizard / Swordsman / Archer / Cleric, but expanded to include the other basic (Rank 2) options.

For example players wanting to use magic could start as either a Wizard, Pyromancer or Cryomancer at Rank 1, allowing for builds like this:

B3: Pyro3/Lnk3/WL
B4: Cryo3/Ele3/RC
‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’
B2: Wiz3/Ele3/WL

Look how much more balanced B3 and B4 are with comparison to the current meta king B2. They’re not only more balanced, if you’ve thought about Wiz builds much you’ll see that the examples are also incredibly exciting concepts to play which are completely impossible given the current system.

I’m not saying we should all be building as many C3 options in as we can, thankfully this also improves many diversified builds also as the core of the problem is not that C3 usually outweighs other choices, but that being stuck with a terrible C1 option is what is under-powering many otherwise great builds.

I believe this would increase the number of viable builds, as well as improving the performance of many of the less popular classes due to the synergy they may have with previously unavailable class combinations.

fg.png800×482 148 KB

Base Class(es) :thinking:

If adding an extra 8 to the existing 4 starting classes isn’t an enjoyable prospect then I propose either replacing the existing 4 options with basic alternatives (Mage, Warrior, etc.) which stop at C1, or alternatively implementing a Basic class: Adventurer/Novice/Revelator (whatever you want to call it) which quickly changes class in the first town it reaches. So the new system could look like either of these:

Revelator > Any current R2 class at C1 > Rank 2 options

Mage > Wizard/Cryomancer/Pyromancer > Rank 2 options

Warrior > Swordsman/Peltasta/Highlander > Rank 2 options

TL;DR :rolling_eyes:

Being stuck with Circle 1 Wiz/Sword/Archer/Cleric skills sucks and prevents you from getting two C3s and a good C1 Rank 7 choice.

I’d love to get some feedback on the idea, any potential problems with it or additions you’d like to make to the suggestion just let me know. I gave examples as wiz classes, but it’s the same for everything.

2 Likes
#2

its wanna works well in another classes too, but probably inst going to happen.

#3

that’s some radical idea but idk i got this giddy feeling that with some tweaks this might actually be doable.

1 Like
#4

skill reset later on remove energy bolt and equake if ya actually did lvl them and get 5sleep 5lethargy 5shield, shield lvled at the master plus spr is minorly okay, sleep would be limited to 5 atks ofcourse, but lethargy would still give ya the 20% 5lvl dmg boost against enemies for 30 seconds so i don’t see how they are useless skills O_o

1 Like
#5

TL;DR: outgrown skills are outgrown.

and that’s basically it. if the skills aren’t good enough to use in your rotation, don’t use them.
they’re never going to make a change like this, because the idea of starting with the basic classes is literally that: to start with BASIC classes.

it’s up to you to make the decision:
is the power of a C3 rank 1 class more important to your final build?
or is the opportunity to move away from that class rapidly into something that will be more useful to you more important?

besides, you treat the situation as if everyone is required to build 1/3/3 or 3/3/1.
a lot of builds don’t have ANY C3 classes.

1 Like
#6

well speak for urself, that doesnt apply to clerics and swrodmen. of course they arent as powerful, if they were that would be stupid, they are supposed to fall off, if they stay as powerul as they were, then guess what, u guys would need a nerf. wiz3>ele3>wl might be powerful ( idk bcuz ive never played wiz ) so just accept it, if wiz c1 skills didnt fall off then late game, all of the wiz circle dmg skills will be good, all of ele dmg skills will be good, all of wl skils will be good. that cant happen, having all of ur skils be op. thats y they fall off. so late game all of ur skills wont be one shotters, its balanced how it is. and circle 3 skills should be as powerful as they are, u sacraficed 3 circles to get them, it makes sense for them to be powerful.

#7

It’s not just about the skills from that circle. it’s about the huge loss of one whole circle in your final build. A C3 wiz doesn’t lose anything because they needed that investment to reach the incredible C3 wiz skills.

Unless you make it C3, like the vast majority of wizard players are. In that case you get to be blindingly OP, dealing 20k+ (at low lvl too) in a single hit! You also get to get a cool Rank 7 class as your only C1.

I addressed this already. The change would allow for a much more diverse range of high performing builds.

Every build which has a positive use for Rank 1 skills is benefiting heavily, whether they can use those skills as they are, or whether they got an extra circle to unlock something they needed, they still benefit from that C1. On the other hand, any build which doesn’t want to be C1 of a base class may as well have only 6 ranks in their char. They neither get an additional wave of unlocked skills, or useful skills from their C1.

#8

Perhaps not entirely useless, but they pale in comparison to a Rank 7 choice like Warlock. Being forced to keep that C1 also restricts you from a number of other C3 choices if you do choose to take an R7 C1 anyway. Opening up the system to remove the forced R1C1 would make so many awesome new builds available! =)

#9

20k+ at low lvl? i think ur exxagerating, ive seen a lot of wiz, and even with the quick cast buff they were not oding nowhere near that much dmg

#11

At lvl 155, recently finished a dungeon run with two C3wiz C2Ele doing 17k+ and 21k+ respectively per single meteor hit. It’s very easily possible and is the reason people are doing the common Wiz3/Ele3/Lock.

#12

155 isnt low level, i thought u mean like lvl 20.
meteor is strong, mostly bcuz in a dungeon they have no aggro and can charge it up fully. when they have aggro they cant charge it up as much

#13

except that not not all of the basic classes are “blindingly OP” … or even remotely OP at all.
How many builds include Swordie C3 for all its awesome power? cleric C3 hasn’t got much, and Archer is generally just a c1 or c2 choice.

basically, your complaint boils down to Wizard C3 having one really good buff.
which, if your build happens to use that skill, is great.

otherwise Wizard C1 is a pretty throwaway class too.

…

or should we go for it all the way? why should -any- class be multiple ranks?
every class should be a single rank with all the skills available from the start, and you get 3 skill points/level instead of one. then they’ll need to take the hidden classes and bump them up with additional pseudo-ranks, but that’s ok, nobody cares about making IMC do lots of extra work, they aren’t doing anything at all are they?

#14

Sleep lv 5 and Lethargy +100% strike damage debuff is definitely better than all of the spell Warlock offers. While I’m neutral with your idea, your statement shows that you need to learn more about how to use your character.

Energy Bolt don’t really fall off at late game due to the scaling and relatively short cast time/coold down. But again, it’s up to how you utilize it.

#15

Sorry, my point wasn’t that it was super low, but that it’s still over 100 levels away from hitting level cap, so its damage will go up dramatically with more stats, attributes and better gear.

Surespell + Quick Cast so it’s only a 5sec cast and it can’t be interrupted, making it not very difficult to get off.

My point really isn’t about the strength of that particular wiz build, but how the rank 2 choices would make excellent legitimate R1 choices and how that would allow other builds to be more powerful.

The restriction is making many good builds seem weaker, because they aren’t making use of the bad C1 they’re forced to take.

#16

nobody used c1 skills other than clerics and swordsmen, dps classes dont have to, especially bcuz they get better ones later. and if the c1 skills were powerful for dps classes, that woudnt be fair and balanced bcuz then all of their skills wil be ridiculously good and it would be broken to have all the skills op, so it only amkes sense for them to fall off.

1 Like
#17

so then technically i can make this build at rank 7:

Build1 = pyromancer c1 > elementalist c3 > warlock c3

which would be competing with someone like this at the same rank

build2 = wizard c3 > elementist c3 > warlock c1

  1. first of all, all the higher ranked classes have better skills so technically i could skip most of the beginning classes for the later classes. thus making wizard a useless choice to begin with. Why bother having wizard at all if you can just skip that rank?

  2. if i didn’t want pyromancer in my specialized build, wouldnt we have the same problem as you described? according to your logic it will be a “HUGE POWER IMBALANCE!!!1!!” aswell no?

in almost every game the beginning skills are become useless in the end game. not sure if this solution solves the problem other than the fact you dont want to waste a rank on wizard in your specific build.

#18

You’re saying that

Wiz 3 > Ele 3 > War
is better than
Wiz 1 > Pyr 3 > Ele 3
Because the second build has Wiz c1. And like. That’s not why. The reason why is that you’re stunting your build by grabbing Ele a rank late.

Build 1 is going r1 > r2 > r3 > r4 > r5 > r6 > r7
while the second build is going
r1 > r2 > r3 > r4 > r4 > r5 > r6

I don’t know anything about wizard, but as far as I can tell, you’d be better off going Wiz 1 > Pyr 2 > Ele 3 > War. Obviously people go Wiz 3 in that build instead of Wiz 1 > Pyr 2 because Wiz 3 has better synergy with Ele.

#19

yea i agree with this, all dps skills scale poorly.

there would literally be no benifit of using rank 1 at all. unless your a cleric

1 Like
#20

I’m aware of the strike damage, but not everything is a strike attack, the number and importance of your strike attacks varies highly with different builds. Warlock adds a number of high damage skills (Agony: 1154dmg, Theurge: 1219dmg, Mastema: 2064dmg) which far outweigh the increase of a few buffed strike hits. Sleep would be almost entirely irrelevant to something like a cryomancer.

Well your statement shows that you’d rather resort to a subtle jab than consider the issue properly. I’m well aware of how to make use of the skills, but that doesn’t prevent them from restricting a vast number of potentially great builds.

I’m not trying to point at the builds I gave as examples, but at all of the builds which would become available as a result of this potential change.

#21

i think you should not forget that the leveling will go to around 600 or so, and that there will be a few more class ranks too…

at the end it doesnt matter if you have that 1Wiz and then a lot of powerful classes, or if you have 3Wiz and some other powerful classes.

As soon as we get class rank 8 or 9, your image would be wrong.
so i dont think that anything should change at all.

with rank 9 you could for example:
3 Wiz, 3 Ele, 3 Warlock
or you go 1 Wiz, 3 Pyro, 3 Ele and take the 2 “new and more powerful classes” at 8 and 9.