Tree of Savior Forum

Stat Allocation Discussion

General Discussion
#1

Currently, I’ve been theorycrafting and I would love to see people’s ideals on the matter.

  • Swordies primarily need 3 Stats, meaning STR CON and DEX. It’s pretty fair to choose in an MMO which should be primary, secondary, and tertiary or by numbers alone. Strength gives natural boon onto skills that multihit, Con allows us to block and be bolstier. Dex allows us to hit things accurately and give us Crit chance. INT is…well, pointless, and while you’d like to build SPR there’s absolutely no reason to when the other three are more important.

  • Archers also primarily need the same, although allocation can be made more into damage due to their ranged nature. Generally they have the same constraints Swordies do, but much lighter ones at that.

  • Wizards are fundamentally broken right now. There’s no incentive to building power or utility when you can just dump everything into CON. Am I saying this is a bad thing? Only when you actually sacrifice for that power. As it stands now, Wizards don’t particularly sacrifice much to become HP Wizards. They lose their INT, but it’s negligable due to the fact that they won’t particularly die easily and of their high base damage. There’s no diversity in points aside vantage.

  • Clerics are pretty balanced and actually utilize all 5 Stat values well enough, so it’s hard to make changes that don’t ultimately change Cleric’s builds entirely. Their power comes more from their utility spells than their utilized damage, but often those utilized spells take a formula from a stat.

I would honestly like to change up the Stat Allocation, but I am at a folly as to what to do with SPR.

STR: Move Block Penetration here
Reasoning for thus is the block meta that has transpired. Since SPR isn’t able to be able to be stat well enough to ascertain it, I would rather see the buff added here. It would give Swordsmen and Archers more power in Arena against the Aias/Stoneskin/Full CON raidbosses. And at least for me, it makes sense that more strength should smash shields.

CON: Move Resistance to CC effects here
Reasoning for this is wholesome to everyone, even Wizards themselves. This is more to greater influence everyone having some sort of resistance toward what is essentially either a Plague Doctor/Dispeller or Die meta. Nothing else should change, as STR would somewhat counter CON in being able to do something about the BlockPen/Block.

INT: Move SP Recovery here
It seems weird, but honestly Mages need more incentive to actually building damage without gimping them currently. They revolve around just throwing everything to CON, so it’d help if INT was more wholesome instead of only Magic Damage. SPR doesn’t particularly help anyone aside Clerics in realtime, so moving the last buff from SPR onto here may influence a little more. I thought of having a Min/Max (Deviation) system for Magic but that seems harsh to upkeep as most people would just have better min to obtain a solid high value.

SPR: Cooldown Reduction%? Damage Mitigation? SP Reduction%?
This is probably the hardest thing to think of. How would one go about making SPR more attractive to other classes while not destroying it on who uses it best right now: Clerics. I’m not quite too sure. Whatever SPR should have, it needs to firstmost be wholesome to Clerics to not break the skills that scale from them and their value. I do not want to move MAX SP though. Reasoning being it would ultimately destroy Sorcerers in their current state among other classes.

DEX: Nothing
I have no beef with DEX. It’s a stat that effectively counters itself, and only matters on Physical classes. Some DEX will make you able to do PVE very well, but a sacrifice to PvP means if you have less DEX you’ll be at ransom to someone who has higher Dex, although they too had to sacrifice to get things that high. I like that sense of balance.

Tell me what you think.

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#2

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#3

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssss

yeeesssssssssssssssssssssssss

disagree with this = must be wizard … LOL

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#4

First time in my life where I’ve seen a game where wizard classes go full HP builds. I’ve always thought it was kinda silly to be honest lol. Wizards get all that spell power and utility under their finger tips then, on top of that, get to be tanks too.

But it is what it is. Just a humble opinion from no one important.

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#5

Mmm, I admit that I am iffy on Magic damage’s inability to miss versus uncrit-able magic, but I can accept that if a utilitarian wizard wants go build con, they could. Normally that would imply missing out damage or missing out on other stats, but there’s not much loss of anything for them: They can have it all while everyone else has to actually make decisions. That’s not very healthy mechanic wise. Beside nerfs though, fixes like these could actually influence decisions differently.

At least with this it would softly alleviate the CC meta by allowing Con to actually be countered and promote healthier gameplay despite the overwhelming CC. I don’t expect this to honestly happen this way, but it’s something that’d influence people rather than just buffing/nerfing numbers on skills. This isn’t the only thing that requires fixing, but one step at a time seems to be how IMC wants to do things.

And you matter as well, Flan. Attention is attention, and I’d like to see people going on about things that aren’t repeated on these forums 30 times over. It’s a change of pace.

#6

Theory crafting? Sure.

Your changes are goofy from a pve perspective.
While INT/STR are mutually exclusive. Every other stat benefits everyone, with Wizards seeing the less benefit from Dex.
SPR is beneficial to everyone, you’re never going to gain nothing from it being passed via Life-line for instance. Dex has caps where anymore is redundant (100% accuracy, 80% evasion, 100% crit), and teammates can help you meet these caps via buffs/debuffs (aukuras evasion debuff, Monstrance, Swiftstep, Accelerate, Zaciai, etc) as well as your own potential buffs/debuffs.
Hence why they tell you Strength is a main stat for Swordsmen/Archers and even Clerics back at level 2 -_-.

Besides the block pen and other heap of benefits, SPR’s only lacking moves that scale with it, which we can see is an ongoing process.

Everyone can Dump into CON, weapon damage and base skill damage give you a base level of efficiency. Outside of Animus that is a lot of damage lost however. The game is slack on dps checks, which means you can prioritize being ‘safe’ over being destructive, regardless of who you are. Part of why Double Clerics is so solid.

As for the 1.3 strength they’re giving Swordsmen in Ktos. It makes sense from the perspective of trying to encourage squishier stat allocation in Swordsmen players (to try and make them capitalize less off their higher base health). The more STR you get Swordsmen into the less you have to worry about their Health advantage over everyone else.

Block is obviously meant to screw with physical damage dealers. As is evasion, but given Int damage dealers have limited use of Dex (no crit or accuracy concerns), and magic damage ignores Dex, you’re better off going for CON to deal with physical damage dealers since it still gives flat health which affects physical and magical.
Dex is overrated, but then again they don’t really market it to people in the first place.

Block Pen is difficult to talk about when the Block formula is unknown.

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#7

Just do like RO(Ragnarok Online) seriously.

#8

I kinda agree with everything except the CC resist on CON.

That will only make the WIzards even more powerful.

The RO route seems a little better, make certain stats be resisted by CON and others by Spirit. RO did that right,their problem was making the really bad ones all be reduced by CON when they should’ve give some to the luk/int camps.

#9

The problem is more about skills having a flat base damage (that powercreeps like crazy) and less about what each status gives, imo.

Block rate/pen interaction should be fixed by buffs and nerfs, like what they did to Stone Skin. Tank Swordsman builds would be pretty much useless in your scenario, without being able to block any DPS characters well enough to be worth a party/guild slot…

#10

I think part of the balance issue is that magic can’t be mitigated at the moment. Magic being unable to crit doesn’t really balance it out. For the most part I agree with your proposed changes to other stats, @chillcross. Let me throw my own opinions onto the pile :smiley:

Let’s keep in mind that everyone always gets these stats every level, before stat points:

23.8, 25.5, 56.1, 18.7 Max HP for Archers, Clerics, Swordsmen, Wizards, respectively;
6.03, 9.715, 5.36, 8.04 Max SP, in the same order;

(As an aside, this is what level 280 with base CON and SPR would look like for each class:
Archer: 7004 HP, 1740 SP
Cleric: 7232 HP, 2824 SP
Swordsman: 16473 HP, 1539 SP
Wizard: 5275 HP, 2355 SP)

0.5 HP recovery,
0.5 SP recovery (0.75 for Clerics),
1 P.Atk (and secondary P.Atk),
1 M.Atk,
0.2 Critical Rate for Archers only,
1 Evasion (1.125 for Archers),
1 Accuracy (1.25 for Archers),
0.53 Block (0.56 for Swordsmen),
0.5 Block Penetration.

1 CON gives 85 HP, 1 SPR gives 13 SP. Regardless of class or level.
So here’s some changes I personally think would make sense.

STR: +1 P.Atk, +1 Crit.Atk, +1 Block Penetration, +0.01 Movement speed. Additional +1 P.Atk, Swordsmen only.

CON: +50 HP, +2 HP Recovery, +5 SP, +1 SP Recovery, +2 P.Def, +0.25 Block, +0.5 Magic Resist. Additional +1 Block with a shield equipped, all classes.

INT: +1 M.Atk, +1 M.Amp, +1 M.Acc, +25 SP. Additional +1 M.Atk, Wizards only.

SPR: +35 HP, +0.5 HP Recovery, +9 SP, +2.5 SP Recovery, +2 M.Def, +1 Magic Resist, +1 M.Critical. Additional +0.5 Magic Resist, Clerics only.

DEX: +1 Accuracy, +1 Evasion, +1 Crit Rate, +0.01 Movement speed.

Basically… we split HP and SP bonuses between CON and SPR and reduce the total HP pool while increasing effective HP through defense. We introduce Magic Accuracy and Magic Resist as a carbon copy of dodge chance but for magic.

We modify INT and SPR creating a tradeoff to balance. INT-heavy casters will actually be glass cannons; SPR heavy builds will have significant magic defenses, better regen, and critical potential.

And to touch on the movement speed increases briefly, this is aimed at swordsmen and archers. I had a bit more detail on this one but by the time I got to writing it… D:

#11

I would instantly agree on this if all other aspects of the game match a new stat allocation rule. This was the very best point of RO, and it worked cause equipment was not good by level, but by what you build around it.

#12

This is the only game I know where the TANK CLASS are WIZARDS…

Facepalm…

#13

Yeah. They aren’t perfect, but we might as well try and think of what to do. I want to see things have multiple additional scaling on skills. Naturally skills either just scale with INT/STR, but I’m not sure on how to go about breaking the massive amounts of things you can supplement CON with but the lack of things you can build SPR with. Naturally SPR works on everyone but that creates a 4th pillar in management…while Wizards really only tolerate two at best.

Naturally Wizards just have high hitcounts on their skills meaning that they would benefit from the INT, but it’s as you say: Survivability > Raw Damage. The problem is even with that survivability they straight still do high base damage, and still run around a swordie. But that’s a matter of buffs and damages.

See, I played RO a decent amount but my memories of Vanilla RO are dead since I played that before I played LaTale, and I barely remember that either. But I suppose that is right, but since naturally everyone builds CON it was supposed to ideally supplement even them as well. But I guess the short-sightedness of it would make CON mages stronger without nerfing their damage values. Well, that or adding [+INT] formulas to further push the need for risk vs reward.

@subignition I see it now, you basically made CON and SPR slightly sister and brother to each other. I’d say that’s a fair theorycrafting progression. Since M.Amp is valued at something like a .5Magic attack, i’d be like adding what’d be 50% bonus INT ontop of itself, while that would create insentives would actually straight make mages blow up people. But it’s ideas like this that may help IMC if they ever roll around with an update that fixes some relevance in balancing out Stat wise issues.

#14

Dex REALLY SHOULD gives critical attack (or minimum attack at least, while Str gives higher maximum attack).

#15

I made a suggestion a couple weeks ago on how to balance skill damage better and have your stats be more important.

Pretty much all they have to do is put stat multipliers on every skill like some already have. So lets say its a magic damage attack, right now its simply MATK+skill damage. If they lowered the base skill damage and make it scale like (MATK* 1.1)+(INT* 0.8)+skill damage then your stats will be more important to the damage. Just an example, it could be any multiplier they want. Now int actually matters for damage and going full con would make you do very little damage.

This would make it easier to tweak the skills too if they needed by changing the multipliers. Right now they just buff or nerf base damage on the skills for balance…

There is also stuff in the suggestion on damage mitigation… but this is about stats.

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#16

The game isn’t really about stats.
The Core came is so (intmtionally?) low tuned that 5 players can go to 280 without spending a single stat point.

Numbers are significant in relation to other numbers.
There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with 1x scaling but again its how it relates to other numbers (quantity of health points & Defense).

When it comes to Int, again the deal is just how high base damage is.

I mean fireball is 15 hits. This is 15 applications of your INT.
Frost ground is 31/32 hits. Thats 31/32 applications of your Int.
Flame Ground is up to what 39 or so applications of your Int.
Possession is 30 hits.
Cure can be 38/40 hits.
Zaibas.
Etc etc. These are all effectively 15x+ damage skills already. If defense is reduced they’re very very powerful.
Skills like Multi-shot and fireball don’t really fall off in damage (at least not now). What occurs is that their low base damages (at rank 7) aren’t supportive of low STR/INT investment, because of the multiple applications of defense.

We’re not going to have all stats equally desirable might as well get that notion out of our heads if its there to begin with, but to make some skills better with INT/STR then others you just have it so their base damage is low.

Firewall for instance. This isn’t a potent spell in low INT builds outside of Animus. It hits multiple times but its solely off your magic attack without any base, so if you have low INT, it’s going to be reduced so much by defense that it won’t do credible damage.