Tree of Savior Forum

So what are you thoughts on "Re:Build - The Introduction"

General Discussion
#1

“TREE”

The Limitations of the Current Rank System

The strength of Tree of Savior as a game is the wide variety of classes available for players to pick and choose from with which they can explore and overcome the many challenges presented to them in the game. This was, and still is, the central philosophy behind our game design.

For such a potential to be fully realized, we believe that all choices that our players make in building their characters should be significant.

However, player choice in character development is rather limited under the current rank system. With the vertical rank structure of the current system, classes of the lower ranks fundamentally fall behind the higher rank classes in efficacy. The lower rank classes are chosen on the basis of the availability of a useful buff/debuff and the classes that do not have such desired buff/debuffs are often overlooked despite the wide array of different skills and features they offer the player.

As a result only 23 builds, on the basis of player preference, have proven themselves to be ‘valid’ builds for the game. In general, these ‘valid’ builds mostly consist of classes from ranks 7~8 with some lower rank classes added for support of the main higher rank classes.

In its current state, the versatile character build is no longer Tree of Savior’s strength because the remaining builds apart from the aforementioned 23 builds become a ‘regretful’ decision that players want to revoke.

[Rank Reset] was introduced as the means for the players to revoke such decisions in developing their characters but it only deepened the problem at hand and further cemented the more powerful builds in their current place.

New Direction

The restructuring of the rank system, at its core, aims to re-value all available classes equally and further develop their feature characteristics and personality.

In order for this to happen, we will be restructuring the convoluted rank advancement system and removing manual stat point allocation that did little to affect the direction of character growth. Furthermore, class trees will be expanded and rearranged to reinforce the role and the purpose of every class available in the tree.

Overall, the new job advancement system will be more intuitive and convenient in comparison and the underutilized lower rank classes will be repurposed through the ‘horizontal’ restructuring of the rank system to provide our players with more versatile means to enjoy the game.

Along with the restructuring, current in-game features will be improved upon and new content and balance tweaks will be made to compliment the changes in rank advancement.

The summary of the changes in the rank advancement system are as follows:

  1. The current rank system will be replaced with a new job advancement system.
  • Players will be able to choose any of the classes available in a given tree on advancement.
  • Players will be able to use the in-game [Class Change] system to readily switch between classes.
  • Level cap for each class will be extended to 45 and a single character will be given a total 4 classes(1+3) to choose from and combine.(For example, 560 different combination of classes can be made in the Swordsman tree)
  1. New class tree and new classes will be added and existing class trees will be partly rearranged.
  • Players will be provided with a [Class Tree Change] for a limited time to compensate for the expansion and the rearrangement of available class trees.
  1. With the removal of ranks, the power difference between skills of different ranks will be minimized and all skills will be adjusted so that every class will be able to more faithfully play the roles that match their available skill-set.
  • Magic attacks will be changed so that it is possible to land a critical strike, be dodged and blocked.
  1. Attribute system will be changed.
  • The learning cost will be drastically reduced for all attributes.
  • New feature will be added where players can extract attribute points from their characters.
  1. Stat system will be changed.
  • Stat allocation will be automated and increase with each level to better reflect class characteristics.
  • Extra stat points obtained through quests or Goddess Statues will be available for the players to allocate freely.

The [Re:Build] update is currently in the process of being tested internally with the goal of being released mid-November.
A more detailed introduction of the changes made will be released in the coming weeks through the official TOS Developer’s Blog posts.

Thank you.

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#2

I mostly just regret how I just two days ago spent over 20mil silver on my Murmi attributes :tired:

Otherwise I really like how it sounds, balancing the classes horizontally compared to vertically is a really good thing for the game I feel.

1 Like
#3

Just read about it and I love it. Looking forward to see how it’s going to turn out in practice.

#4

Eh, not impressed tbh. I think It’ll be a fiasco.

  1. Classes at any point is potentially nice and allows for better combo’s. Got no issue with that.
    But I don’t like the new 4 class limit, and how on earth would that work with hidden classes? Also seems far to simplistic compared to what we got atm.

  2. I’ll reserve judgement till we can see said changes on this part.

  3. Also sounds good, to many lowby options had nice themes/skills but far to little dmg.

  4. Fixed Stats are going to be an absolute disaster that runs counter to the entire mix and match system IMO.
    This could easily kill off most spr builds on its own, prevent stacking con/spr on builds that desperately need it, pigeonhole builds further if they need specific stats to even compete in PvP and also disincentives magic/physical combo’s slightly.

5 Likes
#5

I think changing only rank system is not enough at all. And I hope they didn’t work only on it.

If they want to make stat distribution automatically, they need to change its mechanic and calculations.
So all stat based mechanics need to be updated like block, evasion, accuracy, critical rate, etc.

All skill mechanics/calculations need to be reworked too.
All monster/boss skills/stats mechanics/calculations need to be reworked too.
All quest rewards need to be reworked too.
All collection rewards need to be reworked too.
All item stats need to be reworked too.
All title rewards need to be reworked too.
All item enhancement mechanics (hair/anvil/transcend/etc) need to be reworked too.
And the list goes like that…

Too many things are related to current stat/rank system.

Since they want to bring it in November (probably kTOS) I don’t know how long they’re working on this update but I don’t think it will be smooth update. Result might be unbalanced and more complicated.

1 Like
#6

I don’t know how much manpower and brainstorming was spent to do this but all you had to do was introduce a stat / rank reset NPC with affordable rates. Since we have 5 free available TP you can make it cost like 10 TP to prevent heartache / potential abuse.

At the moment only 23 Builds are viable? Now only 3-8 builds are viable. People always aim to min-max to the optimal build. After 1-2 months of theorycrafting and testing, it will boil down to the usual raid roles of DPS, Support and Healer. DPS will have 1 or 2 dedicated builds while the support and healers will have the other 3 or to be generous 5. The rest will be crafting builds which i assume are not in the 23. Congratulations, you now have a generic MMO with even lesser variety.

The only good change is possible attribute reduction costs? But I wonder how the maxed out players will be compensated. Also auto stat allocation is a terrible idea and should be discarded asap.

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#7

  1. I believe it is a good way to improve build diversity. It’s good in theory, but if some skills/attributes are not reworked, it will still result in a new kind of meta (e.g. Zealots Fanaticism lvl 15) that result in some builds being more capable than others.

  2. Unless they remove already existing Class options from trees like e.g. Paladin from Cleric just to avoid having to create more new Classes for the new base tree, I’m fine with adjusting power (will probably result in some ridiculously strong build/skill options for e.g. Murmillio or Shinobi or even Inquisitor [Cleric>Paladin>Inquisitor>Exorcist]);

I hope hidden Classes will be additional options outside of the 4 Classes so that you can have 4 Classes + 1 hidden Class, as I can’t imagine Chaplain/Miko being viable as full-fledged Classes even if they gain more skilllevel and 2-3 new skills to fit 45 Class levels;

maybe they could opt to make it a sub-Class?

  1. This will be interesting if it indeed allows combinations of several Classes that were not viable till now.
    Maybe they could consider Rank 1 & Rank 2 Classes as base options so you’re not dead set on Swordsman/Archer/Cleric/Wizard?

  2. This might be good or might be fatal, considering that all attributes will now be equally cheap/expensive, so either will all skills be at Rank 4-6 niveau cost-wise (which could ruin some players that spent only on low-Rank nskills till then) or it will be very cheap, which makes the attribute system obsolete.

This is very problematic.
I can agree on two things nevertheless:

  1. The current free stat system does not reflect the Class choices the player made
  2. The impact of certain stats like INT/STR is very little while CON and SPR are very important

Best would be the following system:

  1. Every base Class receives a base stat growth on all stats
  2. Every Class you advance into adds a modifier to the base stat growth; these modifiers are additive in nature,so the way you advance through the Classes determines the way your base stats look after leveling
  3. You keep the additional stat points earned from quests so you can still personalise your character with individual stat point distribution
1 Like
#8

My only problem with it is about the new class tree. the way they might move some classes from the other trees to the new one… That might break some people builds. I’m worried. Besides that I’m okay with everything else.

#9

New changes it excellent cant wait to do build experiments :haha:

2 Likes
#11

What about those of us who like the piano key playstyle though? I always try to play the most complex characters in mmos. I want to be able to play a difficult and technical class if I choose to.

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#12

I think we still need more information. So far it looks good, cannot wait to see it live on test server, so we can better analyze it.

About the fixed stats: I think it can be nice depending on how and if they will be reworked regarding bonuses that each point provide.

I think this will give more meaning to Identification and equipment base stats cause, let’s be honest here, we pretty much aim more for a higher enhance + transcend than the equipment attributes itself. This could work around those full CON builds and create the necessity of choosing wisely on where you will get your extra points (which equipment and the free points from quests and statues)

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#13

They looked at how popular Maple Story 2 is right now, then said: “What can we do to try and get some of those players here?” - After taking a look at their declining profits and player base it was decided internally somewhere to finally take an attempt at doing something seemingly productive, but really needs other things to be done for a complete functional fix to core problems. Taking away the stat build system leads into a more equipment itemized heavy game which has it’s own issues. If they can even pull it off without any game breaking issues that lead to prolonged damage that would be great.

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#14

It just one way or another. Some will like it, some is not. I’m more prudent to see the change and experiment with it. How about they put a poll? At least we can a see quantitative value how many is agreeing with this change.

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#15

I think there are a lot of obvious changes that have to happen with this update, and therefore I assume the changes have been considered and also implemented. That is to say, I’m excited if they are pulling this off.

Another thing I’m cautiously optimistic about, is that it is being deployed globally on the 15th, not just to ktos. Perhaps we are finally seeing updates being level-set for all servers? I’m hoping so, because I don’t like waiting months to get the same updates that ktos has. It makes international feedback feel like a joke.

Though with the stat point normalization, I’m concerned about the state of;

  • Summoners
  • Palaquis

Palaquis is an SP hungry class, so many of us take Kabba1 for Ein Sof to compensate for that. With only being able to take 3 subclasses, there will probably be no room I fear for Kabba - does that mean we’re all being sentenced to pot-chugging? That doesn’t sit well with me.

Summoners have been able to safely go pure SPR for a while now. There are a lot of circles that benefit from it, which is great! But if stat points are being auto-allocated based on class choice, it sounds like we’re going to be indirectly nerfed by having points placed anywhere other than SPR…

#16

Chances are high that Cleric and Wizard will have a decent to high gain on SPR, so I guess your worries are naught at the moment.
Paladin>Inquisitor doesn’t use that many SP anyway, no idea how you’re scared about that.
I’d rather be concerned as Zealot or Exorcist if the SPR isn’t enough to keep up the recovery via pots…

Currently, Kabbalist C1 is just a convenient filler, not the identity of your character.
With the new Re:build-system, every Class will be part of your characters identity, as it contains the complete Class, not just an abridged skillset.

I think it’s better because now the developers have a reason to care about every Class equally.
Circle 1 convenience is now dead (it was mainly a thing for Clerics anyway), long live the Class identity system where people choose a Class for its whole skillset, not just 1-3 convenient skills as a way to fill the gaps to Rank 6-8…

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#17

I doubt a decision like this was made in 2 weeks

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#18

Just my guess. This is what they want to do for the ToS mobile version. We will be the beta testers. LOL. In any case I’m still excited. Plz fix the VGA problem.:sad:

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#19

Entire game and class system overhauled
99.99% chance the necronomicon STILL won’t work properly, showing fake Shoggoth stats and not having a use for the other three card slots.

#20

Back in 2016 after the game was released, to me the core problem of the game was that you’d spend weeks leveling your character, only to discover that your build choices were bad. The chances that people would stop playing for this reason are much higher than thinking they would reroll a new character. You can’t punish players for a mistake was not even their fault.

Of course some people would say that you should search information about builds before playing, but that’s not how games work. Most people want to play and enjoy the game, and will not read guides. Even for us, that discussed a lot about builds, it’s hard to know what is good without testing. You have to check skill range, skill animation, what situations are better for each skill, and even with build information, there’s no way to know what information is reliable or fully updated. On top of that there are hidden interactions and information regarding hit counts and that kind of stuff that you can’t predict only reading the tooltips.

Ok, after some time they decided to make the leveling process much faster to make it easier for anyone to reroll. However, when you make the player jumping too fast on end-game, the player is skipping a lot of the game content (storylines, maps, exploration,…), and getting into a repetitive content, and this is where more people just get bored of the game and quit.

World of Warcraft is currently suffering from this. Look at the irony, the father of end-game is now trapped with the “skip leveling and go to end-game” mentatility players have today.

I always thought that additional ranks in this game should be treated as talent trees on other games: you can pick your choices but you can easily reset when needed or to test other builds. This TOS 2.0 update finally looks to be going in this direction, so I like it a lot.

The only thing we can’t actually know for now is about the 4 classes limitation. I think all classes will have only 1 rank, like hidden classes, with more skills than current C1, and players would end with 4 different classes (including base class). Today we have 10 ranks, but most classes are kept into C2 or C3 ranks, so in the end the average build today would have 4 or 5 different classes.

Now we can only wait and see how the skills will be distributed for each class. I hope it does not drastically reduce how many skills we can get compared to current rank 10. And about the stats change, most games today use automated stats system, but that games are in great part western games, and not the korean style with stat points/refine/permanent choices.

MapleStory 2 allows the player to reset stats and skills any time when outside combat/dungeon. This way you still have to make some choices but is not punished for some wrong or unexpected choices. I think it’s a good way to follow if you want to reduce the frustration of wrong choices, or at least put that option to an NPC.

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#21

So they’re finally starting to make the game non linear.

This could work really well, if they made the game like this at the beginning before official release it would most definitely be a lot more popular.

But there’s still far more to be done… fixing the classes and making everything balanced, viable, non linear for ability choices will only solve the characters.They also have to fix the monsters, leveling system and the questing system so new players are completely free. Seeking stronger gear is fine since people will always need incentives or something to grind. However they could heavily improve level requirements, add more gears, and make the enchanting system better, since I see a lot of people in this community now a days complaining about that.

They have to add true difficulty based on skill & experience. They need to add learning curves to differentiate the newbie player from the expert pro.

They have to make field mobs the main and best way to have fun, gain items and play with friends or party members.

A challenge every map they go in…

They can’t keep on limiting people’s free will to play, ways to efficiently spend their time in game. The way the game is now they basically tell people to just complete all their daily dungeons, quests, events, whatever and then leave. Log in next day to do the same. Instead of telling them to explore, have fun with friends, do whatever they want freely and play as long as they want, they’re actively getting rid of players from the game and making it stale, boring, limited, linear. You shouldn’t be telling players what to do at all in a non linear game, instead you should present as many options as possible and allow the player to freely decide how he/she spends their time in the game.

If they keep fixing all the major fundamental flaws in this game, then maybe launch a new server to get new players to try it, I wouldn’t be surprised if the average player count went up to 100,000+ in the next years.

But still, the biggest and most difficult change ToS needs… they need to have the best optimization possible and ensure 10,000s of people on decent gaming PCs can run it flawlessly on 1 server. To be fair, I don’t know how it is now since I haven’t played recently but it used to get bad and this really harmed the game. If they can’t have this then there’s no point in fixing ToS since it can’t one day handle 100,000 players anyway and all the little kids playing will complain about lag or disconnections. This stunts growth, because you want those little kids spreading word of mouth to other little kids about how great this game is, so 10 more little kids get curious and want to get in on it.

I’m proud of the developers though, it took them a few years but they’re finally taking the huge risk they need in order to make ToS the game that it could be. I hope to see more risky changes like this.

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