Tree of Savior Forum

Population dropping again?

General Discussion
#43

DPK stands for Drop Per Kill, its the system they used to exclusively use for rare item drops. They’ve changed it for some (all? not sure) to use a top down system that sort of mixes random % with DPK.

Mystical Cube is pure random chance to obtain whatever is in its drop table. Opening 100 cubes doesn’t change the chance that you will obtain a practonium vs opening only one, apart from having 100 separate chances to obtain it.

People don’t hate Mystical Cube because it’s random chance % to drop practonium, they hate it because the chance is extremely low. The low chance would be fine if you could open 1000 of them per day, but since it’s locked to once per day it can become frustrating. This is the same situation as boss cards on Ragnarok Online being so rare even though they had the same % chance as normal monster card drops. If you can kill 1000 monsters in the same amount of time you can kill 1 monster (due to respawn timers, or in TOS case, cooldown of cube) it will always feel lower than it is.

4 Likes
#44

Cant the logic be applied to DPK too with lower value? Meaning DPK is good with lower value. You can twist whatever you want with % base. But the reason why we have random is because people dont care if we have small %, they just wanted it to make it pure random, regardless of chance. You can search the forum if you have doubt.

#45

DPK is never a good system. If you use DPK you might as well not have a drop system and instead just have quests that give items with the requirement of “Kill 500 of these enemies and I’ll reward you with X item”.

Also you quoted half of the reason why people hate Mystical Cube in my explanation so go back and read it again, fully this time.

Edit: I’ll just post it for you since you probably wont anyway:

People don’t hate Mystical Cube because it’s random chance % to drop practonium, they hate it because the chance is extremely low. The low chance would be fine if you could open 1000 of them per day, but since it’s locked to once per day it can become frustrating.

2 Likes
#46

Thats better than mindlessly farm for hours without items in sight. Only hardcore people would want to farm days for days for a chance to get the item. Why? Because this is KR mmorpg. known for its grindy stuff.

[quote]The low chance would be fine if you could open 1000 of them per day, but since it’s locked to once per day it can become frustrating.
[/quote]
Sigh, if you can open it 1000 times a day it would mean the chances will get lowered too. So opening 1k is the same with once a day. I didnt quoted it because you only needed commonsense to answer it.

#47

You mean DPK :joy: RNG is okay for drops but DPK just put a lid on player’s grind span.

1 Like
#48

Thats better than mindlessly farm for hours without items in sight. Only hardcore people would want to farm days for days for a chance to get the item. Why? Because this is KR mmorpg. known for its grindy stuff.

What do you mean without items in sight. The next mob always has a chance to have the item drop for you. DPK is a system where you farm for hours without items in sight because there is literally no chance you will find the item on the next enemy until the DPK amount is hit.

If it’s a KR mmorpg known for grindy stuff, why are you complaining that you need to grind stuff.

Sigh, if you can open it 1000 times a day it would mean the chances will get lowered too. So opening 1k is the same with once a day. I didnt quoted it because you only needed commonsense to answer it.

If you could open it 1000 times per day they wouldn’t need to lower the chance. You’re assuming things. Even if they lowered it to 0.01% chance you’d still find them at a more consistent rate opening 1000 per day than the current system of 1 per day at whatever chance it’s at right now.

My point was that if you have any drop rate on an item, but that drop rate is lower than 100%, you’re still limited by a timer for how often you have that chance. This means that if you fail (do not obtain the item) you can’t immediately try again. Being forced to wait for a chance (no matter how high) always feels frustrating when you do not obtain the item you want for extended periods of time.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would much rather have more chances (as many as I would like to do, realistically) to obtain something than only one chance on an extended retry timer, even if the chance per try is lower. This is purely psychological, but it has to do with the agency you have in obtaining the item.

8 Likes
#49

I think you still living in the past DPK. We no longer have that. Current system is progressive percentage the more mobs you kill. Meaning the item can drop on the very 1st kill. The chance will not go away after the item drops. Still there but lower chance. So our main loot system is % based not DPK.

The same can be said to you about grinding mobs for days without any sightings.

Youre the one assuming that IMC will give it to you the endgame equips for free. The expected effort you need to excel to get end game equips will be proportional to the chance you also have to excel when it comes to the amount of your tries.

Nobody likes endless grinding specially lower % chance. No matter how much you can try it will be just another waste of your time.

[quote]I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would much rather have more chances (as many as I would like to do, realistically) to obtain something than only one chance on an extended retry timer, even if the chance per try is lower. This is purely psychological, but it has to do with the agency you have in obtaining the item.
[/quote]
It is still the same. You cant make this game less grindy because we suddenly have many chances to acquire that practonium. It will only happen if IMC nerfed practonium weapons similar to white equips.

#50

Except it is a pretty legit claim, Korea has been favoring this model since it doesn’t exclude a large majority of their player base. It’s a fine line to thread, but the inclusive design (people with lots of time + people with less time but money) works for them, and it’s creeping into the west, because it’s hard to justify the time-investment and keep CCU high enough to fund the development of the MMO.

as a side-note, I’m sure as hell am not going to let you or anyone else decide if I’m eligible or not for MMORPGS, simply because I can’t invest 16+ hours a day grinding “fairly”. It’s only fair from one perspective, and you have to ignore a lot of if’s and but’s to call either of the two extremes fair.

2 Likes
#51

I think you still living in the past DPK. We no longer have that. Current system is progressive percentage the more mobs you kill. Meaning the item can drop on the very 1st kill. The chance will not go away after the item drops. Still there but lower chance. So our main loot system is % based not DPK.

We have top down now, you are right, but it isn’t DPK. But, with that said, to put it in perspective how low the extremely rare items are: 20,000 DPK item requires 10,000 kills to make the chance 0.01% (same as a card on RO) and another 5000 kills to raise that to 0.02%, so you do not see a meaningful drop rate after 15,000 kills, or 3/4 of the DPK of the item.

The same can be said to you about grinding mobs for days without any sightings.

I don’t understand what you mean here I guess. I don’t have a problem farming for hours per day, for days on end. I farmed an Elven Bow on RO for 5 hours per day, for 4 or 5 days in a row, and had no issues doing it.

Youre the one assuming that IMC will give it to you the endgame equips for free.

I didn’t assume anything, I thought it through both cases of no change, and lowered drop chance. You don’t know what they want the drop rate to be in a situation where you could open as many as you want. All you or anyone knows is what it is right now. I even mentioned the case where they lower it so the equivalent of a 10,000 DPK item (0.01%), saying it would be more consistently obtained even with that rate by opening 1000 per day than right now.

Nobody likes endless grinding specially lower % chance. No matter how much you can try it will be just another waste of your time.

Don’t speak for other people, there is many that likes endless grinding at low % chances. If you think it is a waste of time then that is your own opinion. Games do not need to change to your tastes, you need to find the game that fits those tastes.

It is still the same. You cant make this game less grindy because we suddenly have many chances to acquire that practonium. It will only happen if IMC nerfed practonium weapons similar to white equips.

I don’t want to make this game less grindy, I just want to have a fair, consistent chance per kill to find an item.

Maybe you’re confused as to my stance, I played Ragnarok Online for 13 years, I am not against killing 10,000 enemies to level or find an item. I do understand that other people do not share this same view though.

6 Likes
#52

The question is no longer about drop system but whether IMC would want this game to be super casualized. Whether we have % or DPK it wont matter as long as IMC perspective is “this is a grindy game”. Of course thats what korean MMORPG is. Current DPK is meant as our insurance if we are grinding stuffs. Removing the current DPK is like drinking poison and expecting IMC to die.

It means you belong in the hardcore player based. I dont trust my luck, I still have mystical cube for more than 6 months already. Lots of people have the same experience as I do.

Here is another example.

Grand chase gacha system. In my server a GM leaked a pattern to get the equips for sure fire method even though Gacha system was meant to be a percentage. Lots of people do the gacha after learning this, it clearly benefited the whole community more than as %. So the leak as a whole is good. It is similar to DPK that after some tries it will drop.

Thats why we have % + insurance in our drop system as middle ground. The problem maybe is the abysmal % to get the item not the DPK.

[quote]I don’t want to make this game less grindy, I just want to have a fair, consistent chance per kill, to find an item.

Maybe you’re confused as to my stance, I played Ragnarok Online for 13 years, I am not against killing 10,000 enemies to level or find an item. I do understand that other people do not share this same view though.
[/quote]
What you want is higher % not removing DPK. Better not to be allergic to the word DPK. I also grind in R.O and will grind again if another MMORPG that pique my interest has the same loot system. However DPK seems good as long as implemented properly.

#53

You guys entertaining the DPK troll again? Hint: disregard him

4 Likes
#54

Top down definitely is a great system when the DPK values aren’t on the extreme end. 2000 DPK is 1/2000 chance at 0 kills and it only gets better from there, that’s an incredibly high chance (rare item-wise) to obtain the item randomly per kill. It breaks down when its >10,000 DPK since the chance is so low that it almost doesn’t exist.

The problem with thinking of the top down DPK as insurance is that it’s shared insurance. You personally don’t have insurance that you will eventually find the item, the entire server has the insurance, so you’re just back to the random % drop chance (which is fine when not in the extreme high values like I said).

Not trusting your luck to find stuff and earning money to purchase items is entirely how MMORPG economies function. If everyone can get anything they want, why would anyone buy anything from anyone else?

Overall I agree that top down for values of 10,000 or less DPK is a good middle ground for drop systems.

Originally this was a talk about the Mystical Cube chance vs how often you can try for it. Which again is just player agency affecting the outcome. The more a player feels like they have control over a drop, the better they’ll feel about the system that drops it. Having a direct relationship between wanting an item and being able to control how many chances you get at said item is one of the biggest factors. Being locked out of opening a cube for a chance at practonium after opening the box once, per day, takes that agency away, even if the per-opening chance is higher. I think everyone can agree with that.

Just wanted to bring this back full circle to the topic since the discussion has concluded.

7 Likes
#55

Yea, % should be higher and improved the map base system.

Ill give you my like too for being the unintelligent one.

#56

Who cares about Korea? We’re talking about legit gameplay here. P2W = You’re a cheater, simple as that, you don’t even deserve to stand in the same ground I’m standing. Why don’t you take Jtok as an example?

1 Like
#57

I honestly don’t get it your point of view :confused:

Some ppl have nothing to do and play for 12 hours a day.
Some ppl have to work/study and play for 4 hours a day.
Some ppl can spend the money they earned working to close the gap with the ones who does nothing beyond playing.

They are not cheaters, they’re using whatever assets they have.

4 Likes
#58

can someone tell me what is the point of thread like this??? x.X

1 Like
#59

Right?

//20characters

#60

Totally agree.
I don’t understand these people complain about Leticia cube, ToS (not like others MMO) don’t deny access to high end stuff without real money.

1 Like
#61

Everybody just came back to the game to spam compensations and reset their characters. Then DPK bug happened to prolong their stay, but then it was gone, and then they left.

Waiting for the next event and to people stop camping shinobi flower so i can come back get the quest and go back to my dotes 2 again

PEACE BRUHS

#62

Just another cheater. Old school and true gamers finds you repulsive, don’t belong.

2 Likes