Tree of Savior Forum

Please don't Buff Gear

PvE is already a cakewalk. Buffing gear to make PvE even more of a cakewalk is nonsensical. Most players seem to complain about the lack of difficulty.

Yes, classes aren’t well balanced but that is for PvP strictly. What needs to happen is for PvE to become more challenging and have more endgame content.

Increasing monster health does not make the game more challenging. Is destroying a dummy made out of wood any more challenging than destroying a dummy made out of varnished wood? No. They are still dummies.

Also, having more endgame content does not mean that ToS suddenly has to ‘show all their cards’. The ‘gone fishing’ is a good start for endgame content. To me, proper endgame content are activities that can be done when there is no more progression and only farming.

Here is a list of some farfetched ideas (but ideas nonetheless to give a gist of what I’m trying to get at)

  • Companion breeding
  • NPC relationship(gifting, questing, etc)
  • ‘Horse’ Racing
  • Bingo
  • Jousting Tournaments (for Cataphract and Lancer classes only)
  • 7 Day costumes earned from minigames
  • Dividing players into two factions: (Demons and Tree-huggers) and have PvP only maps in the world rather than just Team Battle Maps)
  • Have players compete for ranking in Demon/Tree-hugger faction, each with their own perks

What buffing gear does is essentially the same thing as either raising Monster HP or lowering Monster HP: it just modifies the time to overcome a threshold. It does NOT make the threshold any more difficult to cross.

Think of it as walking through ankle-level mud vs walking through ankle-level water. Its not more difficult. It just becomes more or less tedious.

What needs to happen is for monsters to become more ‘intelligent’ (aggressive) and organized. Thus, I propose the ‘Monster Centurion’ idea.

Similar to how the Centurion would have functioned in-game, with formations and buffs, there ought to be elite monsters with the same capabilities. Monster centurions should be able to organize local monsters into formation to attack the player and give buffs to those in formation.

While non-centurion monsters without a centurion monster around would act the way they normally would, a centurion monster ought to be aggressive.

The goal is to not only create a more immersive experience but to also create a more challenging experience while being faithful to the lore (somewhat). It just doesn’t make sense that a whole bunch of monsters who are supposedly terrorizing the people would just stand around and wait to get smashed.

This leads into the second idea: Demon and Tree-huggers

The premise is that the world is engulfed in chaos and the players have to fight against demons and their monsters.

But the problem is that the players never get to experience this ‘fight for their life’. Although it is quite impossible to just suddenly implement a system of which faction controls which territory on the current map, there ought to be a separate set of maps for this sole purpose of faction fighting.

The goal of faction fighting is to:

  1. Have players experience the actual war for the Tree
  2. Serve as endgame content

Being part of a faction should also mean being given a position and rank according to the player’s standing within the faction, not their level. This could mean that daily quests would have a larger part to play rather than just another pointless activity: daily quests can count towards faction contribution and increase a player’s standing.

But what should the benefits of faction ranking do for a player? Rather than have a stipend and some other buffs, it should be oriented towards the faction wars. Ranking should:

  • Allow certain players to direct the flow of battle (ie which place they should attack next)
  • Designate certain guilds to protect certain maps (like giving land to nobles)
  • Control AI soldiers (a better insertion point for classes like the centurion. Rather than involuntarily drafting players into formation when none are present, a centurion-like player can opt to bring along AI soldiers set in formation)
  • Where to garrison soldiers and how many should garrison a map.
  • AI Soldier drafting
  • Budget management

Again, I know some of my ideas can be considered far-fetched but I hope that it gives an idea about what endgame content should aim for. And endgame content certainly shouldn’t include buffing armor and such. That’s not even a band-aid solution. That’s like applying a band-aid to a part of the body that isn’t even injured and leaving the wound open and festering.

PvP balancing should come after endgame content is included. Why? Because people who look for PvP content are often people who can’t find anymore non-PvP content to deal with. Also, many games have the problem of fiddling around with classes all too often.

In fact, fiddling around with classes will often last forever. There will always be a complaint about some class or skill being too overpowering or too under powered. Some of these claims are legitimate, some are not. But the point is that it is pointless to attempt rebalancing classes when so many people are asking for more things to do other than PvP as endgame content.

What keeps players from leaving and attracts new players isn’t just events. If a game doesn’t have the depth, then a game should expand horizontally.
Where depth is something like Path of Exile with the numerous stat tweaking, gem combinations, etc and horizontal expansion is something like including a mini-game that is not really related to the core game. Just for laughs, imagine if there was a tetris-like minigame in ToS or a balloon popping mini-game or even tic-tac-toe.

2 Likes

Basically this, but with Demon Lords like Nuaele or Marnox acting as the leader would be fun.
Also, they should randomly attack and devastate maps, occupying them in the process and require a recapture expedition by the players to reenable warping with the goddess statues to these territories.
Occupied territories should result in shortages of supplies, making certain items more expensive or having no supply left at all (e.g. no more repair/socketing/transcending available for the whole community,higher market taxes,higher attribute point prices) until the territory is recaptured.

This could be done in a similar way to ROs castle territory system, where the community can invest items and silver to result in properity, thus reducing the prices/taxes/etc. while capturing the territories reduces the developement level of maps. Capturing/recapturing maps as guilds could provide your guild with exclusive rewards generated by the community managing the territories (similar to the castle treasures in RO), and if you combine that with actual management abilities (i.e. use of Templar skills to hire & deploy soldiers, build defence structures and a notice-system in case of emergency/threat by demons), it could make a rather interesting “endgame content” with neverending hours of fun and action engagement without having to rely on PVP content at all.



About the current elite monster system: It’s a decent approach, but elites are too rare and too weak to be even considered any kind of threat. Elite monsters could be tweaked eaily by making them 25-40 levels higher than the base monsters level, resulting in certain death if you make a wrong move.

Also,their A.I. needs improvement and they should buff their subordinates accordingly.

When the WBs appear in the map, the monsters could turn into aggressive and concentrate more close to the boss, that way players would had to kill them to get to the boss. The respawning mobs will come to the boss aid so people will have to coordinate an offensive and defensive group to avoid wipe outs.

I still think that the bosses shouldn’t be attacked by anyone 30 Lvs higher than it’s Lv (except support, but they don’t receive any rewards too) or get a buf (or debuff) that make their levels drop to the appropriate Lv which I think it’s the most properly way to deal with this problem, that way everyone can have fun trying to kill it.

The elites could cast some other skills instead of just the purple circle debuff on the ground.

The monsters are too much like punching bags. Not everyone is looking for a "Dark Souls’ type of difficulty but going in the other extreme with near-complete passive monsters is even worse.

Before anything else, PvE content needs to be more challenging. Currently, the only monsters that actually put up any fight are world bosses and that is only if the player is fighting one around 10 levels above their own.

Before even talking about monster centurions organizing and buffing nearby monsters,

  • Monsters with shields should be able to perform shield block, not just passive block
    • The only times I’ve seen a monster perform multiple blocks in a single encounter was when I was around 10 levels below and I have had ~73 unspent stat points and ~29 unspent skill points. Otherwise, I literally steamroll every monster and it becomes unfun
  • Monsters need to attack faster (It feels like dynasty warriors where grunts just walk up to get smacked)
  • Monsters need a more diverse number of actions. Not just 1 or 2 attacks.
  • Armor resistance needs to be amplified
    • For example, pierce resistant monsters need to be more immune to pierce
    • Another example, slash resistant monsters need to be more immune to slash
    • Fire resistant monsters need to be more resistant to fire
  • Monsters should be able to call nearby monsters into battle.
    • This one is a bit iffy but it just feels strange that a player could walk around some fairly intelligent looking monsters (the ones that wear armor, shields and weapons), kill their buddies and they would just stand around doing nothing.

The last point I want to make is that ToS should not aim to be a game where players re-roll characters every so often. It is not designed the same way as Path of Exile with ranks, runs and leagues. ToS was designed with Ragnarok Online in mind. I don’t recall rolling characters every so often in RO like it was some kind of race to see who has the better build or who can reach the max level the fastest.

edit: I hope I don’t come across as aggressive. I’m not trying to; just building upon the ideas you’ve given.

That’s exactly why I suggested that Elite monsters should be more common and several dozen levels above the level of the normal monster. The level difference is such a nice tool to play with damage, but it isn’t utilized like at all in the game. The monsters with the highest levels are all some rare boss monsters.

Exactly, they need to improve a lot. If they attack, they need to be quick and diverse, I’d like to see monsters use all player skills, especially the stronger ones like e.g. Cyclone, Hail, Frost Cloud, Telekinesis (only if they manage to fix the client crash bug,though xD), etc, possibly even at higher levels than the players can use (e.g. level 20 or 30).

It would be nice if some monsters could counter some attacks like e.g. ROs Wanderer and if monsters would run away with a high movement speed buff if they don’t stand a chance to beat you (with a 60 movement speed buff; applies if their allies get killed around them and they are a passive peaceful monster) so that sneak attacks become more important.

Monsters who are agressive should react like the packing monsters in RO, e.g. Pecos or Wolves that attack you if you attack one of their kin.

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