i meant for the hack and slash part
but giving ToS attack variety and combos is not gonna make it hack and slashā¦
still, any combat oriented game should feature fights with 1/2 strong monsters, fights with larger groups of varied mobs, and also fights where you can get swarmed if not strong enough or using the wrong approach. Otherwise the game is just being restrictive and the reason usually is bad design.
repetitive attacks are a thing of the 90ās, take new MMOs such as Skyforge, I didnāt like the game as a whole but canāt complain about regular attack patterns, it has many variations to suit different situations and types of fights.
nonono, i meant the comment was for the guy who wanted hack and slash lol
sadly, only extra hidden stats T^T
ah sorry! xD
but still I hope my points kind of make sense for the most part 
1 Like
Ouch, this sounds a good idea indeed but will need a whole lot rebalancing. How about only changing the design like some already mentioned above (the animations, the sound, etc)? The problem here is actually the varieties. We are trying to have normal attacks which are not dull. There is no necessity of changing the whole gameplay, the design modification/improvement is enough to acquire such varieties.
And like @NoElement said, if this idea is implemented at the earliest development stage (before skills, equipments, and stat effects are being created), it might have grown well in the depth. But if it is implemented now, with all these already worked out contents, I can only think that it will only make the game more complex without bringing in further depth to the gameplay because it will also erase the current āfunā in utilizing the current skills and scenarios.
Cheers.
1 Like
then we dont need lot of skill then, just combo with your normal attackā¦ it will be hack+slash boredom in the endā¦
2 Likes
No. Please no.
/20charslol
Thatās an interesting point of view. Would people rather have more skill variety or a meatier autoattack hack-n-slash system in place? Both? I canāt help but think of Guild Warsā skill variety and with that alone I would be happy with a skill-heavy game, but I wouldnāt mind if the other option arised. All in all, everyone just wants the game to be fun.
Q) The game seems to have some balancing issues on using different skills. Some skills are too effective and there are also other skills that are not that effective.
A) We will keep adjust the balances, but we will focus more on different uses for each skill.
The basic attacks would still be used by players even if their characters reach the maximum level, and even if a skill has a low usage, there will be circumstances that players should use such skill.
Based on this entry the developers wanted autoattacks to keep a grade of importance after all. I also think the fact there was a question about this in the post-CBT survey itās a good indication theyāre still considering where they want to place the emphasis and how theyāre going to balance everything out in the end. They wouldnāt bother so much with the weapon types bonus damage and armor type resistances system while adding more and more new skills (even combining them with that system) to certain classes at the same time otherwise.
I like these ideas! The more oomph we can add to our autoattacksthe better - weāre gonna stick out with them for a good while after all.
Iāve already mentioned that I donāt like Skyforge all things considered, but at least in basic attacks the game does it right.
This is only Paladin class!
There are 2 normal attacks not shown there:
Hold right button does circular area attack, has cooldown, can knockback or stun weak/small monsters.
After jumping character hits the ground with a heavy shield attack, landing with area damage, also may knockback or stun weak/small monsters.
Some of these normal attacks will consume resource (if able) to give extra damage/effects. Combat is a mix of basic combos and skills, skills have varied cooldowns and resource costs. Only skill used in video is the protective globe that is brought up, no resource cost only has cooldown, theres also a combo finisher used at 4:11, enemy has to be low hp, it fills resource bar to some extent, has cooldown.
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@giiiirrrrrr
I have some reservations because like you, I too, do not enjoy Skyforge, but Iāll have to admit the one thing they did that severely kept this game from being little more than a (soft) tab-target was the combo system.
(otherwise it really was just the generic tab target conceptā¦ with a ādodgeā.)
The benefit of their combos is that theyāre not nearly as powerful as the skills, theyāre little more than fillers meant to take up your time and attention while you wait until you can re-cast your skills.
(this might be more obvious in ToS)
Skyforgeās method for combos is certainly an option.
@pygmalion001
That is assuming your combos actually do more damage than your skills.
While it may be marginally better than a normal attack for any reason, the idea of the combos isnāt to trivialize skills, but to help fill in the monotonous gap of auto-attacks between skills.
(and in the case of auto-attack build classes, to increase aesthetic impact)
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Exactly! But in other games that are at earlier stages of development I do hope that basic attacks and passive/active character building is to be made with a lot more variation in mind, Iām tired of carbon copy design (in Skyforge I feel that, some very small details aside, everyone is carbon copyā¦)
@jochris
Fair points, though this need not necessarily but a combat change as much as it is aesthetic in nature.
Think of it as adding a new type of combat-able emote, if you will. (i.e. Maplestoryās facial expressions)
The combos can exist almost purely as āalternativeā animations with only the most minor of improvements.
It likely will, though calling a combo system ācomplexā is a bit much, donāt you think? xD
Iāll agree, thereās not a lot of depth to be gained from this, thatās not actually the point.
What Iām hoping it will do is to reduce the monotony in the time spent between skills.
The goal isnāt necessarily to create a meaningful combo system.
It may not (as mentioned) even need to affect combat efficiency and be cosmetic in nature.
My reply to NoElement, on the topic of 'being complex without being deepā
I will repeat myself here with some clarification.
There is no reason for it to not be both other than āit will take more work.ā.
That being said, being complex without having depth isnāt a problem in itself.
That just means that itās a feature no one needs to use and that our auto-attack heavy, skill-focused game concept remains intact with the option of allowing some players the option to be a bit moreā¦ engaged where it would normally be monotonous.
Unless you think every concept in this game needs to add depth to it, that reasoning is flawed.
Do share you have something more specific.
Iād like to come up with them but this is a bit deep into opinion and I am unfamiliar with the idea of not enjoying shallow aesthetic variety.
p.s. In case it wasnāt obvious, I donāt mean combos to replace normal attacks. If anyone feels like it, I donāt think thereās any reason you arenāt allowed to just use the exact same normal attack repeatedly as always.
Whether it is to be more effective is up for debate, but Iād prefer to just give opinions and suggestions and let IMC handle the choice, if at all, to make it so.
It doesnāt really need to be a full-pledged combo system, IMO. It could be something as simple as increasing the damage of the next skill used after landing a certain amount of auto attacks, or maybe even an exp bonus (albeit a tiny increase) for pulling off continuous hits in a set amount of time. Since we āwillā be using normal attacks, they should at least complement the usage of skills. With that said, Iām all in for mixing it up by adding in a few more animations into using basic attacks.
Normal attacks will definitely need to stay fresh as long as possible if the game is going to be centered around it. LaScoot has great suggestions to keep it fresh. Alternative animations should be widely accepted as good. It doesnāt change core gameplay at all, so itās strictly an upgrade.
The alternative attack kinda sorta already exists in the subweapon [C] attack. You can only see it in action through videos. I would love to see the button perform an alt attack if youāre using a 2-h weapon. A wizardās staff has this function, but not others to my knowledge. Itās pretty flavorful and sensible to have left and right-handed attacks. Having a 3rd normal attack may be too much to juggle. Itās also hard to justify having a āheavyā attack that isnāt a skill. If the subweapon were made more prevalent, I donāt think people would want an alt-attack.
Combo systems are great, but a slight problem is that this is what the Corsair class does. The Corsair is about consecutive attacks to build combos and using subweapon cancel for swift attacks. Though I think itād be fun for everyone to play like a Corsair, it might reduce the appeal of Corsairs. Of course, they could still be better at doing the combo stuff than everyone else, which is fine, but I would like each class to be unique as possible.
Combos also increase complexity of the game. For example, imagine a basic 3-hit combo: [Z]-[Z]-[Z]. At the end of the combo, your character performs a cooldown-animation after dealing the finishing blow. Lets say unless youāre dealing the killing blow, itās more dps efficient to do [Z]-[Z]-walk-[Z]-[Z]-walk-repeat. Now thereās a small learning curve that raises complexity slightly without adding much depth. I would personally enjoy this, btw, since it removes blind button mashing. It would also give me something to think about when normal attacking, instead of staring at my sp bar or the time remaining on my cooldowns. Anyways, what Iām trying to say is, depth isnāt crucial to game mechanics. At least, not when the normal attack mechanic is as shallow as a puddle. If normal attacks were to get as complex as say, Elsword (big fan btw), then depth is going to need to be greater than complexity. ToS isnāt that kind of game though, so Iād like to get at least knee deep before I worry about complexity vs depth.
I would shy away from direction inputs+Z for combos though, as that is a surprisingly large entry barrier for non-fighting game players. You wonāt believe how many people canāt do pivot jumps in super mario 64. Plus, thereās also the chance of input lag. Speaking of fighting games, I would appreciate a change in the Z normal attack to accept both presses and releases as input. So that someone could attack twice with a well timed single button press+release. Itās a wonderful feature for gamepad users.
The special attack suggestion is basically just skills. If the normal attack could build up to execute skill-like damage, it devalues skills. The special attack system could easily be itās own class, like a class that gains an advantage by using normal attacks before skill finishers.
Iām a huge fan of @Janggoās suggestion to build sp by using combos. Or even just by landing a normal attack. Itās another nod to fighting gameās super meter system. However, this system does have the drawback of giving offensive classes a noticeable advantage. If non-attacking support classes lose out on a source of extra sp, youād have to balance it by giving offensive moves a higher sp cost or non-offensive moves a lower sp cost. No matter how itās balanced, this suggestion can only be positive for the same reason the [Z]-[Z]-[Z] combo example is. It gives the player an incentive and reason to attack. It builds sp so they can return to using skills. It flips their mindset from, āIām normal attacking because I canāt use skills.ā to, āIām normal attacking so I can use skillsā. A positive mindset results in positive results.
4 Likes
wouldnāt removing the monotonous gaps and have smoother basic attacks be better than putting in combos?
idk if i like this combo idea, thats for corsairā¦
the basic atks just need more animations or something simple like this
@Staryx
I donāt really know if itās better.
All we can do is offer suggestions.
That is one of them, too.
@II_JoJo_II
Thatās a possibility, too.
meh, as long as the game stays fun and last me for a couple of years, im okay with anything XD