Tree of Savior Forum

Normal Attack Variety!

i meant for the hack and slash part

but giving ToS attack variety and combos is not gonna make it hack and slashā€¦
still, any combat oriented game should feature fights with 1/2 strong monsters, fights with larger groups of varied mobs, and also fights where you can get swarmed if not strong enough or using the wrong approach. Otherwise the game is just being restrictive and the reason usually is bad design.

repetitive attacks are a thing of the 90ā€™s, take new MMOs such as Skyforge, I didnā€™t like the game as a whole but canā€™t complain about regular attack patterns, it has many variations to suit different situations and types of fights.

nonono, i meant the comment was for the guy who wanted hack and slash lol

sadly, only extra hidden stats T^T

ah sorry! xD
but still I hope my points kind of make sense for the most part :smile:

1 Like

Ouch, this sounds a good idea indeed but will need a whole lot rebalancing. How about only changing the design like some already mentioned above (the animations, the sound, etc)? The problem here is actually the varieties. We are trying to have normal attacks which are not dull. There is no necessity of changing the whole gameplay, the design modification/improvement is enough to acquire such varieties.

And like @NoElement said, if this idea is implemented at the earliest development stage (before skills, equipments, and stat effects are being created), it might have grown well in the depth. But if it is implemented now, with all these already worked out contents, I can only think that it will only make the game more complex without bringing in further depth to the gameplay because it will also erase the current ā€œfunā€ in utilizing the current skills and scenarios.

Cheers.

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then we dont need lot of skill then, just combo with your normal attackā€¦ it will be hack+slash boredom in the endā€¦

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No. Please no.

/20charslol

Thatā€™s an interesting point of view. Would people rather have more skill variety or a meatier autoattack hack-n-slash system in place? Both? I canā€™t help but think of Guild Warsā€™ skill variety and with that alone I would be happy with a skill-heavy game, but I wouldnā€™t mind if the other option arised. All in all, everyone just wants the game to be fun.

Q) The game seems to have some balancing issues on using different skills. Some skills are too effective and there are also other skills that are not that effective.

A) We will keep adjust the balances, but we will focus more on different uses for each skill.

The basic attacks would still be used by players even if their characters reach the maximum level, and even if a skill has a low usage, there will be circumstances that players should use such skill.

Based on this entry the developers wanted autoattacks to keep a grade of importance after all. I also think the fact there was a question about this in the post-CBT survey itā€™s a good indication theyā€™re still considering where they want to place the emphasis and how theyā€™re going to balance everything out in the end. They wouldnā€™t bother so much with the weapon types bonus damage and armor type resistances system while adding more and more new skills (even combining them with that system) to certain classes at the same time otherwise.

I like these ideas! The more oomph we can add to our autoattacksthe better - weā€™re gonna stick out with them for a good while after all.

Iā€™ve already mentioned that I donā€™t like Skyforge all things considered, but at least in basic attacks the game does it right.

This is only Paladin class!
There are 2 normal attacks not shown there:
Hold right button does circular area attack, has cooldown, can knockback or stun weak/small monsters.
After jumping character hits the ground with a heavy shield attack, landing with area damage, also may knockback or stun weak/small monsters.

Some of these normal attacks will consume resource (if able) to give extra damage/effects. Combat is a mix of basic combos and skills, skills have varied cooldowns and resource costs. Only skill used in video is the protective globe that is brought up, no resource cost only has cooldown, theres also a combo finisher used at 4:11, enemy has to be low hp, it fills resource bar to some extent, has cooldown.

1 Like

@giiiirrrrrr
I have some reservations because like you, I too, do not enjoy Skyforge, but Iā€™ll have to admit the one thing they did that severely kept this game from being little more than a (soft) tab-target was the combo system.
(otherwise it really was just the generic tab target conceptā€¦ with a ā€˜dodgeā€™.)

The benefit of their combos is that theyā€™re not nearly as powerful as the skills, theyā€™re little more than fillers meant to take up your time and attention while you wait until you can re-cast your skills.
(this might be more obvious in ToS)

Skyforgeā€™s method for combos is certainly an option.


@pygmalion001
That is assuming your combos actually do more damage than your skills.
While it may be marginally better than a normal attack for any reason, the idea of the combos isnā€™t to trivialize skills, but to help fill in the monotonous gap of auto-attacks between skills.
(and in the case of auto-attack build classes, to increase aesthetic impact)

1 Like

Exactly! But in other games that are at earlier stages of development I do hope that basic attacks and passive/active character building is to be made with a lot more variation in mind, Iā€™m tired of carbon copy design (in Skyforge I feel that, some very small details aside, everyone is carbon copyā€¦)

@jochris
Fair points, though this need not necessarily but a combat change as much as it is aesthetic in nature.
Think of it as adding a new type of combat-able emote, if you will. (i.e. Maplestoryā€™s facial expressions)
The combos can exist almost purely as ā€˜alternativeā€™ animations with only the most minor of improvements.

It likely will, though calling a combo system ā€˜complexā€™ is a bit much, donā€™t you think? xD
Iā€™ll agree, thereā€™s not a lot of depth to be gained from this, thatā€™s not actually the point.
What Iā€™m hoping it will do is to reduce the monotony in the time spent between skills.
The goal isnā€™t necessarily to create a meaningful combo system.
It may not (as mentioned) even need to affect combat efficiency and be cosmetic in nature.


My reply to NoElement, on the topic of 'being complex without being deepā€™
I will repeat myself here with some clarification.
There is no reason for it to not be both other than ā€œit will take more work.ā€.
That being said, being complex without having depth isnā€™t a problem in itself.
That just means that itā€™s a feature no one needs to use and that our auto-attack heavy, skill-focused game concept remains intact with the option of allowing some players the option to be a bit moreā€¦ engaged where it would normally be monotonous.
Unless you think every concept in this game needs to add depth to it, that reasoning is flawed.
Do share you have something more specific.
Iā€™d like to come up with them but this is a bit deep into opinion and I am unfamiliar with the idea of not enjoying shallow aesthetic variety.


p.s. In case it wasnā€™t obvious, I donā€™t mean combos to replace normal attacks. If anyone feels like it, I donā€™t think thereā€™s any reason you arenā€™t allowed to just use the exact same normal attack repeatedly as always.
Whether it is to be more effective is up for debate, but Iā€™d prefer to just give opinions and suggestions and let IMC handle the choice, if at all, to make it so.

It doesnā€™t really need to be a full-pledged combo system, IMO. It could be something as simple as increasing the damage of the next skill used after landing a certain amount of auto attacks, or maybe even an exp bonus (albeit a tiny increase) for pulling off continuous hits in a set amount of time. Since we ā€œwillā€ be using normal attacks, they should at least complement the usage of skills. With that said, Iā€™m all in for mixing it up by adding in a few more animations into using basic attacks.

Normal attacks will definitely need to stay fresh as long as possible if the game is going to be centered around it. LaScoot has great suggestions to keep it fresh. Alternative animations should be widely accepted as good. It doesnā€™t change core gameplay at all, so itā€™s strictly an upgrade.

The alternative attack kinda sorta already exists in the subweapon [C] attack. You can only see it in action through videos. I would love to see the button perform an alt attack if youā€™re using a 2-h weapon. A wizardā€™s staff has this function, but not others to my knowledge. Itā€™s pretty flavorful and sensible to have left and right-handed attacks. Having a 3rd normal attack may be too much to juggle. Itā€™s also hard to justify having a ā€œheavyā€ attack that isnā€™t a skill. If the subweapon were made more prevalent, I donā€™t think people would want an alt-attack.

Combo systems are great, but a slight problem is that this is what the Corsair class does. The Corsair is about consecutive attacks to build combos and using subweapon cancel for swift attacks. Though I think itā€™d be fun for everyone to play like a Corsair, it might reduce the appeal of Corsairs. Of course, they could still be better at doing the combo stuff than everyone else, which is fine, but I would like each class to be unique as possible.

Combos also increase complexity of the game. For example, imagine a basic 3-hit combo: [Z]-[Z]-[Z]. At the end of the combo, your character performs a cooldown-animation after dealing the finishing blow. Lets say unless youā€™re dealing the killing blow, itā€™s more dps efficient to do [Z]-[Z]-walk-[Z]-[Z]-walk-repeat. Now thereā€™s a small learning curve that raises complexity slightly without adding much depth. I would personally enjoy this, btw, since it removes blind button mashing. It would also give me something to think about when normal attacking, instead of staring at my sp bar or the time remaining on my cooldowns. Anyways, what Iā€™m trying to say is, depth isnā€™t crucial to game mechanics. At least, not when the normal attack mechanic is as shallow as a puddle. If normal attacks were to get as complex as say, Elsword (big fan btw), then depth is going to need to be greater than complexity. ToS isnā€™t that kind of game though, so Iā€™d like to get at least knee deep before I worry about complexity vs depth.

I would shy away from direction inputs+Z for combos though, as that is a surprisingly large entry barrier for non-fighting game players. You wonā€™t believe how many people canā€™t do pivot jumps in super mario 64. Plus, thereā€™s also the chance of input lag. Speaking of fighting games, I would appreciate a change in the Z normal attack to accept both presses and releases as input. So that someone could attack twice with a well timed single button press+release. Itā€™s a wonderful feature for gamepad users.

The special attack suggestion is basically just skills. If the normal attack could build up to execute skill-like damage, it devalues skills. The special attack system could easily be itā€™s own class, like a class that gains an advantage by using normal attacks before skill finishers.

Iā€™m a huge fan of @Janggoā€™s suggestion to build sp by using combos. Or even just by landing a normal attack. Itā€™s another nod to fighting gameā€™s super meter system. However, this system does have the drawback of giving offensive classes a noticeable advantage. If non-attacking support classes lose out on a source of extra sp, youā€™d have to balance it by giving offensive moves a higher sp cost or non-offensive moves a lower sp cost. No matter how itā€™s balanced, this suggestion can only be positive for the same reason the [Z]-[Z]-[Z] combo example is. It gives the player an incentive and reason to attack. It builds sp so they can return to using skills. It flips their mindset from, ā€œIā€™m normal attacking because I canā€™t use skills.ā€ to, ā€œIā€™m normal attacking so I can use skillsā€. A positive mindset results in positive results.

4 Likes

wouldnā€™t removing the monotonous gaps and have smoother basic attacks be better than putting in combos?

idk if i like this combo idea, thats for corsairā€¦
the basic atks just need more animations or something simple like this

@Staryx
I donā€™t really know if itā€™s better.
All we can do is offer suggestions.
That is one of them, too.


@II_JoJo_II
Thatā€™s a possibility, too.


meh, as long as the game stays fun and last me for a couple of years, im okay with anything XD