Tree of Savior Forum

Next Generation Gaming: Transcending "Enemies" and "Damage"

Off-Topic
#1

I don’t know why other people play games, but I mainly do it for their mechanics.

I like figuring out systems, trying new approaches and optimizing a skillset or playstyle.

I like looking at colorful environments, cute mobs and exploring big worlds.

I like having the chance to interact with people from other countries, team up and work together for a common goal.

None of this involves “enemies” or “killing”. That kind of mechanic is just archaic and has never really been questioned - out of habit I assume.

Let’s take TOS for example, a game that would perfectly lend itself to this new approach: Helping mobs “advance”. You don’t deal damage - instead you grant insight. The fortunate receivers (the mobs) do not splatter into little pieces and die - instead they happily vanish in a cloud of light, moving on to the next realm and their spiritual development.

It would make sense to encounter them again, after you yourself traversed a number of astral planes (or whatever lore you would want to make use of), in their advanced form.

The whole mechanics in use now could easily be translated into an approach that revolves around support, friendship and understanding.

The potential for the future is enormous.

#2

Wake up, why would anyone want “mutual respect and development” in a game instead of killing stuff? Even in RL humans crave violence, that’s why when there are no wars there’s box and other violent sports. That’s why there are illegal arenas for unprotected martial arts and animal fights.

I wonder why humanism stems from the word human when our real nature is twisted and violent. Many don’t like to hear this, but I think all of us know it to be true.

One might want to deny it, but look at our past and our present, there’s no greater argument than that. :wink:

#3

There is no arguing with someone’s perspective, so let me just share mine: We create the world we live in, we can either take charge/responsibility to change it for the better, or… well, do something else.

I prefer the former :slight_smile:

The real problem, from my view, is “imbalance” which then leads to all the dark sides you have mentioned. The momentum of the past is pretty big, so it will require a dedicated effort on our end to change the course… but I am very optimistic that it will happen - if not through this generation, then through the next. Or the one after that.

#4

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve never punched a person out of anger or anything, only once or twice in self defense. I’ve never been violent in nature, unfortunately the vast majority of people are.

I get where your optimism is coming from, but look at it from biologic point of view. As long as there is testosterone (not the sole perpetrator) there will be violence. Violence is biologically programmed in humans, and majority of poeple have trouble controlling it.

Even if humanity grows to the point where the majority can control it, we are still going to be seeking a venting mechanism, hence games will remain violent for a loooong time.

#5

I thought this was a joke, then I realized you were serious.

I didn’t actually think the hyper woobie class of human actually existed past sjw nonsense. But regarding killing things in TOS? It makes the most sense. they’re monsters that in lore KILL people. If it makes you feel better, most of the monsters were mutated from humans, who after death have their soul return to the goddesses.

This isn’t undertale where all the “monsters” were just random citizens minding their own business.

Even your “idea” for a game is boring. incredibly so. It sounds like something an indie dev would throw into a game to make it have “artistic” meaning because they were too shallow to think of an actual artistic game like Gone Home, The Beginner’s Guide, etc.

Step out of your safe space, the world isn’t going to EVER become sunshine and rainbows. War, attrition, famine, death, pestilence, and bloodshed are a part of our world and have always been.

Forget what you’re trying to do (essentially just censoring death for something else) ignore the existing mechanic, because simply replacing a gun with a bubble shooter would be about the same thing.

If you truly want to make a game based on this mechanic you’d have to start from scratch. I’ll cite undertale as another prime example of this due to it being probably the only game to actually successfully make you want to save the enemies.

To make someone want to use your mechanic over just outright killing you’d have to make the characters memorable, and worthy of redemption. TOS wasn’t designed for this so that mechanic would be out of place and plain boring.

if you want to pretend to be a game designer, do your research as to actually WHY these systems are used. And how designers make people want to use them, rather than bringing in personal bias and dumb suggestions.

Otherwise you sound simply uneducated and no one will take your suggestions seriously.

TL:DR
TOS wasn’t made to be a game like undertale so the mechanic doesn’t fit
Your point of view is flawed and full of personal bias rather than actual game design knowledge, making you look bad.

P.S. studying game design is only my hobby, i’m planning on making music.

1 Like
#6

I’d love to grant insight to a mob by repeatedly whacking its head with a mace. :grin:

Seriously, though, I wouldn’t play a game like the one you described. It sounds boring as hell. I got bored out of my mind playing Undertale, and what you described sounds even more boring. Like, even more boring than my real life.

#7

also just because i’m here i’ll help you out a bit.

Human nature is indeed fraught with violence, but theres also empathy and compassion in most people.

critically acclaimed games and other media like movies and anime exist in this world such as tragedies making you feel sorry or empathetic towards the hardships of certain characters, and romances making you feel elated or giddy that your favourite characters are finally sharing true happiness.

If we want to base an argument on human nature you’d do well to not ignore these facts.

And look at my undertale example for “mutual respect and development” in a game. The game itself is designed to make you like the characters, and not want to fight them. so much so to the point that people have a hard time actually doing a genocide run because they became so attached to the charming characters. And they simply elect not to play again in order to preserve the happiness they helped the characters attain.

#8

you didn’t try a genocide run of UT? I had alot of fun facing off against the crazy difficulty of the boss fights on the geno run^^

#9

Oh, I did. It was still boring as hell. :grin: Less boring than the pacifist run, of course. I liked the genocide ending, though, but it wasn’t enough payoff for being bored out of my mind about 80% of the time I was playing.

People seem to love Undertale and think it’s a great game, but I’d give it 4.5/10 on a good day. And I’m not braindead. :grin:

#10

As I had said already… there is no arguing with anyone’s perspective :grin:

#11
#12

thats fair, grinding all the mobs in an areas was tedious as hell.

i’m pretty neutral when it comes to undertale, but i have a great admiration of tobby’s use of mechanics so i like to use it as an example^^

1 Like
#13

oh i’m not arguing. i’m stating facts. Though, thanks to my confrontational tone I could see how you were confused~ my apologies

1 Like
#15

Look guys, if you don’t like the idea - that’s okay. You voiced your opinion, I heard it.

Now for those genuinely interested in the concept I would like to clarify:

What you actually do in real life (meaning the buttons you press) would stay the same. The only changes are a difference in the animation on the screen, the skill descriptions and through that… the intention of your actions.

This, while sounding superficial to some, makes actually for a different game. It is not about a change in cosmetics, but rather the intention behind one’s actions.

#16

I never wrote “empathy and compassion” aren’t a part of human nature, I simply pointed out violence is deeply rooted in it in response to ak111’s wishful thinking.
You probably had a discussion with an imaginary me in your head and felt the need to mend “my” views that you created for me.
Well, enjoy your imaginary discussions. :sun_with_face:

#17

Why is it that 99% of all news on the news revolves around tragedy and bad stuff?
It could be filled with good stuff, like doctors saving people, good deeds, but it’s not, people want to see tragedy. That’s why this change (which is basically superficial) you are proposing would make 99% of people leave the game.

That’s also the reason I stopped watching the news over 10 years ago and only look up what I’m interested in :slight_smile:

#18

I do it for the game’s story. Which is the main reason I play FFXIV, not for acheivements, or stats, etc. Sure, they’re cool and all, but I’d rather read the story. I didn’t play a single RPG until I got my Super Nintendo way back, and that was Super Mario RPG. Ever since then, I’ve played pretty much every RPG you can throw at the united states, save for a select few (Okage, for instance, and Persona series.) I will continue playing JRPGs (IE: Star Ocean) and WRPGs (IE: Fallout 4) until I get too tired of them, which probably won’t happen.

And believe me when I say this, in MMORPGs, you don’t meet many people concerned over story. Because, some MMORPGs try to rush the story. Final Fantasy XIV does an extremely good job at story telling by adding solo instances for certain story encounters / etc. rather than phasing the user into the open world (which causes more bugs usually.) Having solo instances like this allows the developers to play a lot more with mechanics, such as having crystals that make the boss invuln until you destroy them, or having a special safe zone that shoots you up into the air while a massive barrage of bombs comes down around you.

Below is an example of the Dark Knight level 50 quest for Final Fantasy XIV. Sorry if it’s against the rules to post a competing MMORPG’s content, but I think it’s relevant.

#19

Honestly, from a development standpoint, that would still be ‘enemy’ and most likely ‘damage’ mechanics, if only by a different name. The rest is just a matter of lore and visual design.

(And why so many games go for a ‘kill’ aspect is simple. It’s the most intuitive thing for action > effect. Concepts like ‘helping mibs advance’ would be too complicated and abstact to explain to a player, especially for a mass product like an mmo. People know hack n slay games and that’s what they’re expecting to get into.
Companies know that’s what sells and don’t like to gamble their money on untested concepts - that’s why artsy and abstract games are an indie thing, while the yearly Counter Strike is pretty much the same with polished graphics and engine.)

If you want game concepts ‘transcending enemies and damage’, you actually need to look at games that totally avoid a ‘vs’ setup.

Journey is the first game that came to my mind when reading your title. A very beautiful and enjoyable game, btw.

Games that put you in a moral dilemma like Undertale are another option.

But extending mechanics like that on a mmo would be hard, maybe impossible.

Journey is amazing for its simplicity, not just in art style but also mechanics, including the absolute non-verbal co-op. It works amazing for Journey and gives it replay value, because every run could feel differwnt. But it’s not a sustainable mechanic for an mmo which relies on communication and goals (lvl, equip, achievements, etc) to work towards.