Murmillo and High Guard

[ziherl_rok_phx]

i honestly dont think your computation is right. i havent seen a computation in this game that multiplies your damage after it is already multiplied. I’m not here to offend you, but im merely saying the damage is unrealistic.

slithering>high kick>head butt = 100%+100%+50% = 250% increase in strike damage. this we know already. so i’m thinking, whatever the computation of high guard+casis crista atrribute for the pelt skill will probably go like this as well, stacking up the percentage modifiers instead of multiplying them every time like you are doing.

correct me if im wrong though

I just did some quick testing on my Dragoon C2 and this is the damage that I am getting:

724800 HP, after Dethrone = 704800 (-20000)
704800 HP, after Spear Lunge + Dethrone = 670000 (-34800)
670000 HP, after Spear Lunge + Serpentine + Dethrone = 600000 (-70000)

Spear Lunge and Serpentine seem to multiply damage.

But don’t umbo blow and rim blow pretty much suck at mid-late game?

They suck until you really gear up.

[Mawsiee]

i see, i stand corrected. but still, id say its not always multiplicative but instead some just stacks the damage. i think we would need to revisit the damage formula thread for this one.

[Mawsiee]

@ziherl_rok_phx is right, it sucks until you gear up because even if you get attributes to increase its dmg, its base damage is still low so what the attributes are increasing is low.

[Alyosha]

is right, it sucks until you gear up because even if you get attributes to increase its dmg, its base damage is still low so what the attributes are increasing is low.

Gear up as in get sweet gear? And even with the attribute increases, what kind of damage can they even do? I’d assume they wouldn’t be usable compared to higher rank skills though. I must be missing something. Thanks for the info so far. Does that attributes essentially make it 250% damage for thrust and blow?

[ziherl_rok_phx]

Gear up as in get sweet gear? And even with the attribute increases, what kind of damage can they even do? I’d assume they wouldn’t be usable compared to higher rank skills though. I must be missing something. Thanks for the info so far. Does that attributes essentially make it 250% damage for thrust and blow?

I’m going to correct my previous equation for any possible errors:
6500+830% Umbo Blow,High Guard and Cassis Crista attribute = 60450
60450+250% Slithering, High Kick and Headbutt attribute = 211575

That’s the minimum base damage from Umbo Blow with that gear.

[Mawsiee]

yes,as in getting sweet gear like the one posted above.

they would do ok damage, it would be just your filler skills while waiting for your big strike skills to use w/ the 3 strike debuffs we have.

they would still be usable since your higher rank skills will be in cool down

[Mawsiee]

i have the same idea on the calculation after you corrected me. though, lets not forget theres an increase as well if the enemy is staggered which umbo blow can exploit

[ziherl_rok_phx]

i see, i stand corrected. but still, id say its not always multiplicative but instead some just stacks the damage. i think we would need to revisit the damage formula thread for this one.

Don’t be, I think you might be right. I did another testing and the difference is 47000 with all 2 debuffs. It’s hard to come up with any valid data, when you have high crit, and the debuffs skills do damage on their own. I’m going to remove my previous post.

[Mawsiee]

im trying to look at the damage formula thread to see where the umbo blow damage from high guard comes in, but im pretty sure now that the 250% strike debuff is on top of everything

[Mawsiee]

Oh and a sidenote … why is nobody mentioning Oghma Gauntlets? They are in my opinion a must wear on this class! They remove the 50% leather weakness from all our strike dmg skills!

it doesnt remove the 50% leather weakness, 25% though

[ziherl_rok_phx]

im trying to look at the damage formula thread to see where the umbo blow damage from high guard comes in, but im pretty sure now that the 250% strike debuff is on top of everything

One possible info:
Spear Lunge adds 100% pierce damage
Serpentine adds 100% additional damage
So two should multiply in theory?

EDIT: I checked a bit as well, attributes and strike debuff seems to stack additively.

[Alyosha]

If I’m going w/ Pelt 3 in my Murmillo build. Do you recommend anything in guardian? I accidentally put 5 points in there so far I see a lot of builds w/ just 1… think I’m headed for a skill reset potion

[DontMindMe]

Sorry to your bubble but based on my tests, all the pelt/rode/murm modifiers are additive.

Things to note:

• Armor penalty is -25% now, it used to be 50% (I think vs ghost is still 50)
• High Guard’s makes you do 330%, the modifier is +230%
• High Guard’s modifier is additive with armor penalty
• High Guard’s modifier is additive with staggered debuff
• Staggered debuff is additive with rode’s debuffs
• Everything is additive
• Look at murmillo videos and their damage do not even come close to multiplicative modifiers. (tell me their build is bad)

Disclaimer: I’m not a murmillo yet(soon) but I’m 99% certain that the helmet attributes are additive with high guard which makes it additive with the rest also.

I have theorycrafted the numbers before, and like you, I thought they were multiplicative. But I couldn’t find any videos of murmillos doing those numbers and it led me to doubt how they were applied (multiplicative).

After starting the build and reaching pelt3, I did some thorough tests which convinced me that everything is additive - which in turn, made me not pick up rode for my murmillo build (rode’s debuffs are still good for scutum/headbutt due to its high base without any modifiers so it can get the raw 3.5x from debuffs; however, it will see a lesser effect on skills boosted by cassis)

---

Using your 6500 base(pretty unrealistic also):
-High Guard attribute +230% (21450)
-Cassis attribute +400% (32500)
-Both = +630% (47450)

After
Slithering/High Kick/Headbutt +250%
+880% (63700)
not +2455% (166075)

Then multiply by 2 with 100% on damage attribute:
127400
not 332150

[Alyosha]

I’ve accidentally went 5 levels of guardian, should I skill reset? Can you show me a good pelt/murmillo skill distribution? THanks!

[ziherl_rok_phx]

So the +100% skill damage attribute applies last? Thank you for making things a lot clearer. I’ve already corrected my post a couple of hours ago, stating that the info is probably wrong.

That being said, if we assume that everything is additive, then we just have even more reasons to leave every skill on lv 1, especially Umbo and Rim Blow (after we get the lv 6 attribute).

Also, this kinda means that you kinda have to take Shinobi as a Murmillo.

I’ve accidentally went 5 levels of guardian, should I skill reset? Can you show me a good pelt/murmillo skill distribution? THanks!

Depends, Guardian is one of the best skills in the game if you ask me, I’d go 15 levels into it just for the Def%.

[Mawsiee]

its ok. having someone making things clearer for us and exchanging infos is the purpose of this discussion and forum anyway. thumbs up to you :

EDIT:

still a lot of increase though… still good thats what i like about strike damage. lots of debuffs increasing its damage

[Mawsiee]

really depends on your build, if you really want to tank, the percentage increase of def from guardian is good. but people mostly put 1 there only for the guardian evasion attribute w/c is 18% evasion. thats pretty big for a 1 point wonder

[ziherl_rok_phx]

still a lot of increase though… still good thats what i like about strike damage. lots of debuffs increasing its damage

Is 100% base damage worth an entire Rodelero circle tho?
But one thing that bugs me about DontMindMe’s equation:

Umbo Blow + High Guard Attribute + Cassis Crista supposedly do 730% damage base damage, or base +630%, 6500+630%=47450

BUT, shouldn’t Slithering/High Kick/Headbutt +250% pierce debuff multiply with the previous number? In other words 47450+250%=166075?

I don’t understand how weakness to pierce only effects the base value of the skill, without including skill attributes? Basically, all 3 debuffs add a total damage of 22750? That seems ridiculously bad. If that is true, we are taking en ENTIRE circle for additional 6500 damage, if the pierce damage multiplies ALL of the previous damage, then that circle is at least worth 47450 additional damage.

Also, why does the Umbo Blow attribute apply LAST? Shouldn’t it be included with all of the rest of Umbo Blow attributes? So base 100% + 630% + 100% attribute?

[Mawsiee]

if you look at his presented calculation, there was nothing multiplicative, only additive, adding all the attributes from high guard, casis crista and the debuffs, we get around 830%

i am unsure as well why the modifier is 230% if the description says its 330%.

rod3 is 200% more damage so yes, getting rod3 i think is a must. you dont really need to be pelt if you want to go murm but i think rod3 is a must

edit: regarding the skill attribute, i think its always on the final output that why he multiplied it after. im no genius in this matter but im assuming thats what it is.

still, according to the computations, from 6500, you get 127400 after all those gruesome calculations… its pretty big

[ziherl_rok_phx]

That’s just it, 127400 seems low. That calculation is done with 100% attributes, that’s like 60 million worth of attributes. For me the reasonable assumption would be ((Base+630%)+250%)+100% or 332150.

If your attack does 47450+100% or 94900 and you DEBUFF the mob, to take 100% additional pierce damage, that additional damage should be 94900 not 6500 o.O.

Not sure if you understand, but it the equation works as he suggested, then we are looking at this:

6500+880%=63700 or in other terms, your 250% only attributed 2,5*6500 = 16250 damage, or 32500 with 100% attribute. Or to put it in a different perspective, you took an entire Rodelero circle, so that your Skills can hit for an additional 6500 damage, with a weapon worth 500 million. There is no chance in hell weakness to pierce works like that?

I’m also unsure about the 330% vs 230% attribute, I’m going to test it in the next hour.

EDIT:
Did some testing and I got no ■■■■■■■ clue what’s going on, but it seems as the Strike vs Plate bonus doesn’t apply to the bonus attribute damage.

VS PLATE -62def:
+0% Umbo Blow does 450 average damage and with High Guard +“330%” attribute it hits for 1100 average damage, basically an increase of +140%

VS LEATHER -48def:
+0% Umbo Blow does 240 average damage and with High Guard +“330” attribute it hits for 950 average damage, basically an increase of +296%.

If we assume that Strike does +50% vs Plate, then 450/1,5 = 300 base damage. 300+230% = 990 bonus damage +150 damage from weakness to strike, we get at 1140 damage. Which seems about right? But what the hell is going out with Leather. If we assume that the base damage is 300, and strike gets -25% penalty vs leather, than the damage is spot on at 300/1.25=240. What I don’t understand is, why do we get a +300% bonus.