Tree of Savior Forum

Low Rank Clasess fall off

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#22

Or they could just add Multipliers depending which type of skill it is.

Balancing Rules:

  1. Lower the class, Higher the multiplier.
  2. Higher the skill Circle, Higher the multiplier.
  3. GREEN skills have CON/SPR multpliers.
  4. RED skills have STR/INT multipliers.
  5. BLUE skills have DEX/CHAR LVL multipliers.
  6. RED mult = SKILL DAMAGE x [ 1 + (STR x 0,10) + (INT x 0,15) + C + c ]
  7. BLUE mult = COOLDOWN x [ 1 - (DEX x 0,10) - (LVL x 0,05) - C - c ]
  8. GREEN mult = SKILL SP COST x [ 1 - ((CON+SPR) x 0,15) - C - c ]
  9. C = Class multiplier ( Lower Class, Higher value ) / c = Circle multiplier ( Higher circle, Higher value )

GREEN SKILL EXAMPLES:


BLUE SKILL EXAMPLES:


RED SKILL EXAMPLES:


#23

TBH the idea of lower classes becoming useless besides their support uses kinda ruins the whole build system of the game, especially in the case of DPS builds, doesn’t it? Any freedom dies and everyone has to choose between awful DPS and viable support for over 200 levels or OK DPS for your level that falls off before you even reach the classes that actually matter for damage, which would be rank 7+. Once you reach rank 7+, everyone will be using the same skills for damage anyhow so any build ideas you had up to that point are irrelevant unless they have support viability to work around those rank 7+ skills. Doesn’t that kinda ruin the idea of freedom in the builds if you HAVE to make a build around supporting rank 7+ skills that you may or may not even like?

9 Likes
#24

Agreed… I was looking at builds to play on OBT, but the more I look, more I lose hope, why would I build C3 with any class if Dragoon skills deal 7x damage of any other LVL 15 C3 skills?

=/ Hope they address this issue ASAP… or they may change their AD from 80 classes to play to 79 useless class and 1 better than the others.

5 Likes
#25

You don’t understand.
All spells should scale better, not just selected 1 or 3 from each class.

A ranger has 45% dmg bonus to all attacks, thats correct, but all other spells of ranger will be unused past r6/7 because they will lack of dmg in comparison to higher ranks.

Full draw was also bad example. It doesn’t scale well, its just utility spell and as such it can be used at higher levels regardless of being completly weak and unreliable for dmg source. Multi shot doesn’t scale well either, however the nature of multi hits makes it viable option to keep.

If all attacks would gain more dmg with level of the character, then i would call them all good.

Tell me that c3 archer, c3 ranger with, say, c3 scout would be viable option when we get rank 9. Of course it won’t unless IMC do something to make lower ranks more interesting. Otherwise we will be forced to use highest rank class and forget about the past. As if we were not meant to build a mix of classes we like, but rather get to the top rank with anything you think is fun and then ditch all of its spells, except maybe some ulitility and buffs (and multi hits).

So clearly they need to improve earlier ranks.

3 Likes
#26

What have I said about scaling, it was something like this
Skill Damage = 100 + (50 * skill level * class cicle) for example

Or even put the current rank at multiplier formula, so lower rank classes would still be doing some damage at later levels, but higher rank classes have a higher constant, so lower rank classes wouldn’t outdamage higher rank classes but still be viable

2 Likes
#27

The other side of this problem is that your defenses get left behind.

1 Like
#28

+1 :heart:

My thoughts exacly…

3 Likes
#29

Or they can make C3 only skill more powerful (big blast). You only get 3 C3 classes, and there are only 1 for each. This should give people incentive to build it up instead of no diversity to classes.

1 Like
#30

Then let me ask the reverse.

In case your wish is granted.

Why bother taking high rank classes if their attributes will cost way more and the damage will be ‘similar’ anyway since by your complaint, all low rank skills should scale to be on par with high rank or they’ll be ignored.

As for Archer 3, Ranger 3, Scout 3 being viable? In a way yes.
You have the +50% crit chance on critical shot as the auto-attack, damage buff in Steady Aim, AoE with Bounce Shot and Splt Arrow.
And with the multi-hit power of Flare Shot, Spiral Arrow and Multishot.

Is it the most DPS setup? No, of course not, or rather, it should be obvious when there’s SCOUT in the class list that it’s not a build min-maxing DPS.

#31

I don’t think he meant to buff low tier abilities, to be on par with the end game ones as you assume. At this stage there is plenty of low tier dps abilities that compared to end game abilities have 7 - 10 times less dps.

This massive difference is the problem. I think we all can agree with the voice of reason that they should not be by any means equal, but make them at least 50%? of what the end game for particular class tree is able to achieve, in some cases perhaps a bit less, but 7 - 10 times its a bit brutal making them completely unusable.

Its like cryomancer and pyromancer from wizard, both are defined as DPS classes, yet non of there abilities provide any reasonable amount of dps at later circles, to be remotely usable for end game dps situations. Some of them give utility yes, but late game Rank 3 support classes suffer because lack of ability to play the game without party.

However! I’m not saying to give support classes the ability to dish out massive dps, but as I said 7 - 10 times less damage makes them insanely under powered when doing solo content, yes not all support players have the ability to have 24/7 party to be able to kill a group of 4 mobs on the field.

Also this could be done like some people suggested in this topic by introducing extra ranks of % attributes locked behind circles or some other viable way so that the ranks in question are not to overpowered early game, as to me it seems that there are balanced for early game only.

And yes that would open up the ability to combine ranks in more bizare and fun ways.

#32

cryomancer
DPS class

You might want to check again.

Also, at max level, Flame Ground hits for 30 times, Fire Pillar 34.
If you discount enemies’ defense value, then you’re looking at effectively:
3000% + 7080 effective damage and 3400% + 8908 respectively.

Even if you considers that enemies’ defense will applies that many more times, I highly doubt it’ll result in that 7-10 times less ‘DPS’ you speak of (reminder: DPS is damage per second, which means you’ll have to consider skill cooldowns as well, and in reality each moment in time you can only cast one skill so skill like Flame Ground only require one animation of casting, compare to Running Shot that requires constant attacking)

Also, while I don’t watch many kToS videos, every single one I’ve seen do use skills from lower rank.
Why? Because COOLDOWN is a thing, and even lower rank skills will still do more damage than auto-attack (builds like QS c3 essentially turn their auto-attack into a skill due to buff duration)

All the people who suggests “oh just add more attribute level” doesn’t seem to realize that those attribute costs a lot.
Did you know? To just get +100% enhanced attribute on Oblique Shot (a rank 1 skill which starts out at measly 1000 silver for that rank 1) costs over 12 MILLION silver.

Higher rank skills would cost even more.

#33

Main buffs usually comes from the low rank classes. They need to focus on that and make them scale so they don’t fall-off. This has been said over and over but even the skills are mostly linear, it needs alot of tweaking and improvement. Buffs should not give fixed amount of stat increases unless that fixed amount can scale to higher levels.

Swfit Step is one good example for this as it gives +25% crit rate based on your current crit rate. They just need to create more of these for lower rank classes.

#34

I hope Swordsman class can be stronger than Archer c3, Cleric Multihit Cure and Wizard c3. Maybe only in my dream, so ■■■■ it, I’m telling you what I want for 3 circle of Swordsman so they don’t fall off hard starting from 2 star map. Don’t take this post seriously. LOL

Swordsman C3 should have Gung Ho Blocking passive attribute and Multiple Attack per Hit Concentrate attribute. Reduce 25%~35% CD for Restrain. Pommel Beat Stun or chance to reduce 75% INT/SPR like Crown skill or 10% chance instant death. Reduce Pain Barrier CD like Surespell + 50% Stamina or HP Attribute. Double Slash + Armor debuff attribute. :blush:

LOL. Bye.

1 Like
#35

I think you guys forget about something.

Low Classes are supposed to fall off since of their weak attack damage at the beginning for balancing purposes. This is so that players are encouraged to go for higher ranked classes and focus on a class path rather than trying to get every single low ranked class. It also encourages teamwork as having multiple jack of all trades is weaker than having multiple master of one.

Low Ranked classes are to simply create a core or structure of your prefered build while carrying you towards it.

#37

OK!!! Because I’ll Stay lvl200 and i will continue as assistant or cryoc1 ( ONLY 2 RANKS ) … what u said and totally incoherent … No one should be penalized for wanting to become a master certain class ( c3 ) Because you are suggesting in IT and yes THAT 're too ugly . both choices must be balanced

#38

In short, you want things become linear where everyone cannot invest on low rank classes whether they like it or not since they fall-off and are forced to invest more on higher ranked classes. Great.

#39

Since going C2 & C3 on lower classes are noob traps and only hinder your experience and usefulness, can IMC just remove C2 & C3 from Swordsman/Cleric/Wizard/Archer/Highlander/Pelta/Cryo/Pyro… and leave all their skills open since it’s useless…

Because I see no point in expend resources, time and people creating useless skills that in your argument you said it’s pointless to get since they are only placeholders for your final build.

Why did they even created Circles? What’s the point of 80 classes if you only will be using them as steps to get to your Dragoon, Ninja, Warlock…

This whole sht is absurd…

#40

I don’t really agree that lower ranks fall off as a general rule.

Wizard c1 sleep doesn’t ever fall off. If you took wizard c2 for sure spell, that won’t ever fall off. Wizard c3 especially won’t fall off with quick cast.

Pyro1 fire enchant and flame ground don’t ever fall off in usefulness. If you want fireball / firewall to stay good, you need to take Pyro2.

Cryo’s freeze skills never fall off in usefulness, and icewall scales with your matk and always does amazing damage with a combo as long as you build some INT.

Highlander c1 gives you +50% crit damage with 2 handers, and c2 gives you the crosscut/skyliner combo - which won’t fall off.

Peltasta c1 gives you taunt and the ability to block, both of which never fall off.

Swordsman c2 already sucks, so it isn’t really falling off.

Cleric heal tiles absolutely don’t ever fall off ( healing by % of max HP ), and going c2/c3 in cleric gives you +5 heal tiles per rank ( +1 if you include divine might ), which is amazing. Going c2 for the safety zone attribute won’t ever stop being useful.

Priest monstrance is a ( flat+ ) % increase to dex, and resurrection is always useful ( especially in PvP and Earth Tower ). Priest c2 gets mass heal which never falls off since it’s a % heal. Sacrament gives an extra hit, which can always be taken advantage of. Aspersion is also a % increase to p def. Revive doesn’t ever stop being useful.

Krivis gives daino, which never falls off. If you’re building INT, zaibas will continue to do a lot of damage as you level. If you’re building SPR, zalciai will continue to give enemies negative crit resist and buff allies crit damage by increasing numbers as you increase your SPR.

Archer swift step evade % never falls off, with the attribute at c2 the crit rate % never falls off, multishot is always useful.

Ranger Steady Aim never falls off, it’s a % buff.

Quarrel Shooter stone shot stun, pavise and caltrops never fall off, and if you go c3, running shot isn’t going to stop being useful later in the game.

What are we really talking about here?

3 Likes
#41

IMO lower ranked classes dont fall off if theyre utility classes, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to be forced to choose utility from lower ranks right? What if theres an even better support class at rank8 and you like lower rank dps skills but they dont do jack sht against all those mobs with 100k hp and might force you to party all the time. It shoildn’t be 100% your fault to pick this sort of class combination, but balancing these many classes can be an issue

#42

I just want the devs to give us some statements about what their aim is and how much of it has changed since the blog-posts etc.

This topic specifically could use some insight to clear this up.

I mean, on one side, the game is supposed to be about huge build diversity and roleplay, but on the other hand they’ve mentioned that lower ranks are meant to fall off, despite that currently not being consistent throughout the class-spectrum in either direction…