To give you a general idea why the farming of one-hand- + sub-weapon or shield vs. the farming of a two-handed weapon is very unbalanced, I’ll leave this feedback here.
We will look at different aspects of the game:
- base stats of equipment
- random stat equipment farming
- upgrading
- transcendence
- ET/Velcoffer raid exchange rates (essences required per item)
and compare the chances&costs vs the actual gains by equipment values
random stat boosts will be added later on (need to collect more data on averages/rates/different amount of stats and/or stat combinations possible for items).
The most important thing everyone has to remember when talking about stochastics:
if you have two different probabilities (e.g. drop chance of weapon A and sub-weapon A), the joint probability is calculated by multiplying those two probabilities
this is very important to remember, as it will be needed for many of the calculations done here (especially the random stat ones later on).
The main reason as to why I showcase this elaborated feedback is because IMC being highly unfair when it comes to farming,upgrading and transcending two different items(weapon+sub-weapon/shield) vs one (two-handed weapon) in both time investment as well as item/silver consumption and efficiency of the items compared.
Without further ado, let us start with the first point:
Farming a random status item
Ok,everyone knows about tos.neet.tv, which will be the main source of drop chance probabilities. I don’t claim responsibility for any errors/discrepancies of values in the database nor in-between droprate changes [which might occur from time to time] which alter the outcome of my calculation.
For the random stat distribution later on, I will give it the bonus of doubt and set them all at the same acquisition chance to make a simplified averaged guess (given the amount of different possibilities, it will be a good guess nonetheless), but this will be added at a later point.
Let us first look at the drop rates of primus gear in the most efficient farming location (Nazarene Tower[340 HG]:
https://tos.neet.tv/zones/4810
As you can see, the primus version doesn’t have its own category.
so we first have to search out the different primus items, then add their probabilities together to form a primus category, and then multiply it with the overall drop chances of the weapon or armor category (the shield belongs to the armor category).
The weapon category has an overall drop chance of 0,66%. This includes all types of weaponry, including sub-weaponry, and all rarity stages.
Within this category, every weapon has a fixed drop chance;
one-handed primus weaponry has 0,3% drop chance (6 in total, so 1,8%).
two-handed primus weaponry has 0,3%,0,25% or 0,21% drop chance,
depending on which item you aim for (6 in total, 1,66% in total).
sub-weaponry has 0,25% or 0,21% drop chance,
depending on which item you aim for (3 in total, 0,71% in total).
primus shield has its own base drop group (armor), which is 1,33%.
Within this group, the primus shield has a 0,26% drop chance.
So, let us first calculate the overall drop chances of the categories and then the specific items you want/need:
To score a random primus one-handed weapon, the chance is 0,66/100 * 1,8/100, which is 0,01188%.
To score a random primus two-handed weapon, the chance is 0,66/100 * 1,66/100, which is 0,01095%.
To score a random primus sub-weapon, the chance is 0,66/100 * 0,71/100, which is 0,004686%.
To score a primus shield, the chance is 1,3/100 * 0,26/100, which is 0,00338%.
So, to get a random primus one-handed weapon + a random primus sub-weapon,
the chance is 0,01188/100 * 0,004686/100, which is 0,0000005566968%.
To get a random primus one-handed weapon + a primus shield,
the chance is 0,01188/100 * 0,00338/100 = 0,000000401544%
These numbers alone are already ridiculously low, but they don’t take into consideration random stats and the right weapon yet.
I’ve left out the stats for later, and won’t really calculate the chances for a certain type of weapon since we have the market for these things.
However, just by calculating the drop chances, one can see that the chances to get a primus two-handed weapon are ~19670 times higher than a primus one-handed weapon + sub-weapon [0,01095/0,0000005566968] and ~24270 times higher than getting a primus one-handed weapon + shield [0,01095/0,000000401544].
This wouldn’t be so bad if IMC had actually implemented indivudual drop chances for each item (so you can drop more than one item per category), but since they’re dropping per category, it’s tough luck, especially for weapon+sub-weapon wielders.
So, let us check in the next category if the time invested into these items are actually worth it and surpass the two-handed weapon.
one-handed weapon & sub-weapon vs. two-handed weapon vs. one-handed weapon &shield
one-handed weapon & sub-weapon
Pros:
- 6 gem sockets in total
- 8 maximum random stats
- 2x availability of attack stats
- cheap upgrade&transcendence costs (individually speaking)
Cons:
- gem sockets on sub-weapon only provide offensive options for physical builds [atk/critatk/crit]
- attack value of sub-weapon is not added to total attack value, but a separate stat
- no ability to block attacks
- higher total silver&blessed shard investment for upgrading&transcending both weapon + sub-weapon
- two separate RNGs for upgrading the weapon/sub-weapon (so it’s less likely to reach a good upgrade value on both than each one separately)
- higher weight for weapon+ sub-weapon than a similar two-handed weapon;
two-handed weaponry weighs around 125-260, one-handed weaponry weighs around 130-170, sub-weaponry weighs around 70-100 - only 1 guaranteed random stat on both one-handed weapon and sub-weapon, and only up to 4 stats in total per weapon/subweapon
- low base values& upper limits for random stats
two-handed weapon
Pros:
- 5 gem sockets
- high base attack value
- 3 guaranteed random stats
- 6 total random stats
- high base values& upper limits for random stats
Cons:
- higher base cost to upgrade/transcend (individually speaking)
- higher weapon weight (individually speaking; Musket is an exception, it’s ironically the lightest weapon ingame although it should be the heaviest, given it’s solid metal)
- no ability to block attacks
- less upgrade potential because of the 5 sockets (or more investment for Golden Sockets)
one-handed weapon & shield
Pros:
- ability to block
- more additional physical defence (on average, a shield adds ± the same amount of physical defence as a similar[rarity& star count] plate top/bottom armor)
- 6 gem sockets in total
- 8 maximum random stats
- cheap upgrade&transcendence costs (individually speaking)
Cons:
- two separate RNGs for upgrading the weapon/shield (so it’s less likely to reach a good upgrade value on both than each one separately)
- higher total silver&blessed shard investment for upgrading&transcending both weapon + shield
- gem sockets on sub-weapon only provide offensive options for physical builds [atk/critatk/crit]
- same or higher total weight when compared to two-handed weapon [except Musket];
shield weighs at least 70, so the minimum weight is 200, with mace/sword + shield towering at 230/240 weight, which is equal or higher than most two-handed weapon - only 1 guaranteed random stat on both one-handed weapon and sub-weapon, and only up to 4 stats in total per weapon/shield
- low base values& upper limits for random stats
- shield only has a downgraded armor category for random stats [i.e. no looting chance],
so the maximum stat value compared to two-handed weaponry is only a little higher [despite two different RNGs]
Now, after this short overview, let us look at the stats;
first of all
Upgrading
Let’s continue with our primus examples from before to make it easier to compare the total values.
I’m only talking about the cost aspect here and will add the probability category later on after more research.
I’ll take the base upgrade costs (so I treat the upgrades as 100% success rate) for easier calculations of the base cost and will later, after I calculated the chance, multiply this value accordingly to get an estimated average.
E.g.
Primus Raffye Sword vs. Primus Raffye Two-handed Sword vs. Primus Raffye Pistol vs. Primus Raffye Shield
Upgrade costs(in silver):
Primus Raffye Sword(https://tos.neet.tv/items/104116)
- +5 = 407 245
- +6 = 545 281
- +11 = 1 576 483
- +16 = 4 512 991
Primus Raffye Two-handed Sword(https://tos.neet.tv/items/124116)
- +5 = 488 695
- +6 = 654 338
- +11 = 1 891 782
- +16 = 5 415 593
Primus Raffye Pistol(https://tos.neet.tv/items/304109)
- +5 = 325 795
- +6 = 436 224
- +11 = 1 261 186
- +16 = 3 610 392
Primus Raffye Shield(https://tos.neet.tv/items/224112)
- +5 = 268 780
- +6 = 359 884
- +11 = 1 040 477
- +16 = 2 978 571
After listing the base costs, let’s compare one-handed weapon + sub-weapon/shield and two-handed weapon(numbers in [] brackets) again:
one-handed weapon + sub-weapon
+5 = 407 245 + 325 795 = 733 040 [488 695]
+6 = 545 281 + 436 224 = 981 505 [654 338]
+11 = 1 576 483 + 1 261 186 = 2 837 669 [1 891 782]
+16 = 4 512 991 + 3 610 392 = 8 123 383 [5 415 593]
one-handed weapon + shield
+5 = 407 245 + 268 780 = 676 025 [488 695]
+6 = 545 281 + 359 884 = 905 165 [654 338]
+11 = 1 576 483 + 1 040 477 = 2 616 960 [1 891 782]
+16 = 4 512 991 + 2 978 571 = 7 491 562 [5 415 593]
So, it costs ~ 1,7 times more to upgrade one-handed weapon + sub-weapon and ~1,38 times more to upgrade one-handed weapon + shield than two-handed weaponry.
This doesn’t include the lower probability to succeed on both items,too, so the cost difference is actually much higher[will be added later].
Next up is transcendence. The values will be the pre-patch values first and updated later.
Transcendence
To make it easier, I’ll just add the stats for T5 and T10; the costs will be in Blessed Gems.
Primus Raffye Sword(https://tos.neet.tv/items/104116)
- T5 = 49
- T10 = 290
Primus Raffye Two-handed Sword(https://tos.neet.tv/items/124116)
- T5 = 59
- T10 = 359
Primus Raffye Pistol(https://tos.neet.tv/items/304109)
- T5 = 38
- T10 = 221
Primus Raffye Shield(https://tos.neet.tv/items/224112)
- T5 = 23
- T10 = 125
After listing the base costs, let’s compare one-handed weapon + sub-weapon/shield and two-handed weapon(numbers in [] brackets) again:
one-handed weapon + sub-weapon
- T5 = 49 + 38 = 87 [59]
- T10 = 290 + 221 = 511 [359]
one-handed weapon + shield
- T5 = 49 + 23 = 72 [59]
- T10 = 290 + 125 = 415 [359]
So, it costs ~ 1,42 times more to transcend one-handed weapon + sub-weapon and ~1,16 times more to transcend one-handed weapon + shield than two-handed weaponry.
This also applies to the hidden silver cost of transcendence via Blessed Gem recipes which are sold from the general item store NPCs, so upon the upgrade cost come the silver costs for the additional gem recipes needed [will be added after the patch hits us].
Next up is the Velcoffer raid and Earth Tower exchange costs and time spent on average to get the respective items.
Earth Tower: Solmiki Area
Since Lolopanther is long outdated and no one is running it anymore, I’ll just state the costs and time spent [for Token users] to get their hands on the respective weaponry and/or shield. I’ll ingore the Earth Fragment costs because you’ll have them covered after a few runs.
Solmiki Sword(https://tos.neet.tv/items/6111113)
180 Grim Reaper Essences
Solmiki Two-handed Sword(https://tos.neet.tv/items/6111114)
210 Grim Reaper Essences
Solmiki Pistol(https://tos.neet.tv/items/6111126)
95 Grim Reaper Essences
Solmiki Shield(https://tos.neet.tv/items/6111124)
95 Grim Reaper Essences
With an averaged ~10 essences per cube(2 rerolls), 1 cube per run and 2 runs per week,
we can assume that you get 20 essences per week.
So,
- to build the one-handed weapon, you need at least 9 weeks
- to build the two-handed weapon, you need at least 11 weeks
- to build the subweapon/shield, you need at least 5 weeks
so it is 14 weeks vs 11 weeks in time investment (1,27 times the time you have to wait for the two-handed weapon)
Let us calculate the silver costs now:
40F cube costs 6 300 000 (1 time) / 2 520 000 (2 times) [https://treeofsavior.com/page/news/view.php?n=1305]
to reopen, so in total 8 820 000 silver.
Since it’s ~10 essences per cube, every essence on average costs about 882 000 silver. We multiply this with the number of essences and then with 2/3, since the first opening costs nothing.
This results in the following costs:
one-handed weapon: 105 840 000
two-handed weapon: 123 480 000
sub-weapon/shield: 55 860 000
one-handed weapon + sub-weapon/shield: 105 840 000 + 55 860 000 = 161 700 000
which is ~ 1,31 times the amount of a two-handed weapon.
Now for Velcoffer raid items & cubes costs
Velcoffer Nest
Since Velcoffer works basically like ET (it provides soul fragments per opening and shares entry limit with ET, so 2 cubes per week), we’ll just list it down similarly,too.
First of all: the cube.
As far as I’ve learned through sources from this forum, the cube mainly drops 1 Velcoffer Soul Fragment per roll.
There are also other items in this cubes, e.g. crafted equipment[untradeable], costumes and raid portal stones, but given that you can disassemble the Velcoffer equipment if you don’t need it, I’ll give it the favor of the doubt and average the fragment count per roll to 1.
Since you can reroll the cube 2 times (similarly to ET cubes), that would result in two cubes per week * 3 = 6 average fragments per week.
To craft the weaponry/shield/subweaponry, you need
- one-handed weapon = 27 fragments
- two-handed weapon = 38 fragments
- shield = 27 fragments
- sub-weapon = 27 fragments
so, given you get ~ 6 per week, you need 9 weeks for weapon + sub-weapon/shield and only 7 weeks for the two-handed weapon [if you reroll the cubes twice].
If we calculate the costs [Velcoffer cube costs 8 190 000 (1 time) / 3 276 000 (2 times)],
since the cube only drops 1 essence[nothing to average], we only calculate the costs for 2/3 of the essences, so to make the calculation easier, we just take 2/3 of the silver price to reroll [7 644 000] and multiply it with the number of fragments required to craft the items.
one-handed weapon + sub-weapon/shield = 137 592 000
two-handed weapon = 96 824 000
so, one-handed weapon + sub-weapon/shield costs ~1,42 times more silver and ~1,29 times longer to craft than two-handed weapon
Last but not least:
Random stats on equipment
Since we are looking at two items vs one item, we have to remind ourselves that, again, for the probability calculation we have to multiply the chances to get the united probability for both items.
To generalize the content, I have no idea of how high the rates for each amount of stats are, but we can make at least base chance guesses by averaging them to have the same success chance.
First of all, we have the one-handed weapon, sub-weapon and shield.
They all have the same base and maximum amount of stats, so I will put them into the same category for this base chance calculation.
- Since the minimum amount of stats is 1, this has 100% chance
- Since there are items with just one stat, however, we have to also add this to the pool of chances
- Since the available options are 1,2,3 or 4 stats, we will give each an average of 25% chance on identification
so, to get the best out of our primus weapon, we would need the 25% chance on 4 stats.
The same thing applies to the two-handed weapon, just that the categories here start with minimum 3 random stats and caps at 6 total stats.
so, to get the best out of our primus weapon, we would need the 25% chance on 6 stats.
However, since we have two items on the one-handed weapon carrier, weapon + sub-weapon/shield, we have to multiply the probabilities [0,25 * 0,25], which leads us to a 6,25% chance to have 8 stats in total, compared the the 25% chance for the two-handed weapon.
This gets worse every time something is rolled (e.g. the different stat categories, the stat numbers), and is highly dependent on how the number of random stats is rolled.
But let us come back to the probability.
Even with this simulated guess that attributed an equal chance to all stat-amounts (25%), which is not real (since 1 single stat is a lot more common than 2 or 3, and 4 is pretty rare; my guess is that the rolls work similarly to dicing, where a high roll can get you another roll and so on),
we see that two-handed weaponry has at least 4 times less effort to get the best possible amount of stats.
This does not yet include the probability for every stat-roll to be something useful, but since I don’t know that mechanism, I’ll leave it aside for now.
So, all in all, we see that two-handed weaponry has the following advantages over one-handed weaponry
- less silver investment
- less transcendence investment
- less time investment (farming two weapons takes between 1,27 and 97080 times longer)
- less RNG deciding the stats
- less RNG involving the upgrades
- higher base attack, so also higher attack gain via transcendence
- equal or less weight
- better stat gains from gems in the weapon (except crit rate)
- less gem investment (5 gems instead of up to 6)
disadvantages are:
- can’t block, except with Highlander skill or Enchanters Enchant Earth
- less defence in case of a shield
- less general usability since the weapon can only be equipped by certain Classes;
Daggers, Shields and Mace/Rod/Sword can be used/shared by more characters of the same account
That is pretty much hinting at how unbalanced the favors are in terms of two-handed weaponry, which has more advantages and disadvantages, especially regarding this games RNGs from upgrading, farming and the random stat system, which is even worse if we consider that ichoring is another RNG layer added that makes the already low rates of farming weapon + sub-weapon/shield even worse.
You trade in a possible advantage (which is over 90000 times less probable) of a small amount of random stats for less base attack, more RNG, more overall investment and in general weaker Classes bound to the weapon, while strong Classes mostly require two-handed weaponry [e.g. Lancer, Mergen, Doppelsoeldner, Musketeer], at least in the physical category of the game.
The only boost is carrying a shield, which gives you the ability to block and some bonus defence, but this comes at the cost of even more abysmal stats than a sub-weapon.