Tree of Savior Forum

KToS General Thread v4.0

It is funny to see classes that are more akin to “reality” dealing with weapon restriction and having such a hard time balancing, as would be in a real scenario I guess, while the more “magical” and “mystical” ones doesn’t have this kind of problem, the only point being class combination really. And this last one seems easier to balance and allow easier and a larger range of combinations.

Well, I just hope IMC can prove me wrong. More than that, a channel like the “ask the Devs” section they have for the korean players would be nice to have here too. Altough it seems they are not listening to korean players as well, looking at what @tomgo32000 said earlier.

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Where did that come from? lol, Nak Muay for lots of damage, Murmilo for control + damage, Matador for lots of crit, Templar for bursts of critical damage, Hackapel for moviment+decent damage and High Lander for debuffs and combos… There are plenty of options if you want to do tank job man… Even Retiarius can do decent crowd managements.

Anyway lets wait and see what imc will do with the shield classes, i m waiting for shield lob getting those spice 18k% hahaha.

That was just related to a theoretical exercise. Being honest, some of the examples you mention do dwell into that but they’re still not in a clear spot, they have certain skills that provide you the ability to do some of the tank functions but they’re not designed to do so.

I listed Barbarian in the exercise but the class would have to be reworked to be an aggressive type of tank as it currently isn’t (which isn’t off for the class thematic), this alone brings a different take on the role and presents players a different option for a more damage oriented build. Assuming Barbarian can still do the same it does today but also have one self heal skill and a revive, Fencer is pushed even further to be based on timed evasion and block and Peltasta keeps as this hard defense there shouldn’t be any other combination with that is as safe nor can sustain aggro as effectively, but only if the classes are reworked (even by slight changes) to do so.

That said, i wouldn’t be as surprised if this build were somehow the most effective boss tank build since Fencer and Peltasta already have the elements required, but that’s not the point.

I think you didn’t do the math. Energy Blast is nearly as strong over time as using Palm Strike + Hand Knife. If you have Divine Stigma up, you outdamage both skills by about 50000% per minute, which is a lot.
It’s a sane conclusion to not buff the skill any further. For Double Punch I have to say the decision was good. Just holding the attack button down shouldn’t outperform using attack skills, it should just be a filler option.
New Monk is stronger than Exorcist, so it’s good to see rational balancing at work for once.

On the balance issue: The developers simply do not try to touch favorite classes.
Just look how they made lancer good against everything. It was designed as an anti-riding class,
then got some magic circle destruction with silence against casters, then got status immunity, then got def ignore and status resistance.

People were talking about lancer nerf with the changes, but it was a complete buff. Prevents 3 second debuff immunity went to Pain Barrier and now it became a free debuff removal,
lancer>peltasta no longer works(Guardian/Hard Shield) but you have buffed Bear that can be used to decrease incoming damage by over 20% and the new swordsman skill Liberate that can cut incoming damage by 50% for 6 seconds, which is enough time to ensure lancer can kill,
lancers debuff resistance from Initiate got removed but since you have 20/30 seconds debuff immunity on that savinose legendary set, this doesn’t matter,
Initiate also got a way more potent def ignore effect that’s based on your weapon attack now (up to 40%, which is way over 5k pdef ignore on a good weapon) instead of fixed 10%.

On top of that, lancer and cataphract iirc can now remove onmyoujis Genbu Shield.
Why would they do this?
If at all, inquisitor should’ve been the one that can remove Genbu, not lancer, as inquisitors class identity is the anti-mage class.
Lancer should suffer against wizards, not dismantle them completely. It’s even more ridiculous considering the fact that retiarius is also on the swordsman tree to drop a levitating featherfoot,
so swordsman nowadays is more anti-mage than cleric.

Meanwhile, the only anti-lancer is tiger hunter, all others either have a problem because of lancers high mobility and/or his cc that lasts long enough to completely destroy you while you cannot debuff him/cc him/kill him because unreasonable damage reduction, defense boost, etc.

This game needs a huge overhaul, especially considering damage reduction skills like Bear & Magic Shield. Maybe they could consider Bear using 0.5% max HP to reduce the damage of an attack.

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I’m not trying to be rude (since saying no offense really doesn’t help), but I believe you do not understand how the nature of no-cooldown skills and Tree of Savior’s multi-class character builds screws with simply comparing damage between 2 specific skills in general.

(Taking kTest numbers for calculations for bosses, undeniable that Monk is nothing right now in iToS)

Energy Blast does 240% x 8 in 3 seconds, so 1,920% per Energy Blast which is laughable damage even now in iToS, much worse in the bloated skill factor meta in kTest right now. When used with Arts Attribute, it does roughly double the damage per hit (first second doesn’t get damage boost, second gets double and third gets triple so for simplicity’s sake I’ll just make the whole thing roughly double), so 480% x 11 in 3 seconds, about 5,280%.

Monk’s Art Attribute now only works on critical hits from Monk skills only (One Inch Punch bleed crits don’t count), so it will be harder to get those 5 critical hits as opposed to using multi-hits to get those 5 critical hits. With that, I’ll assume a MINIMUM of 5 seconds (Double Punch > God Finger Flick > Palm Strike + Hand Knife x4) to get 5 critical hits and a minimum of 5 Energy Blasts per Monk Arts buff (less Energy Blast if one misses a few seconds from the 15 second window). From there, it’s fair to say that Energy Blast can be used 15 times per minute, so about 79,200% per minute. Divine Stigma gives 50% damage and double hits, so I’ll just assume a 200% additional (from my testing the boost is less but I can also blame that to physical attack range) damage boost for 50% up-time at most, thus 198,000% in the span of 1 minute with Divine Stigma. Players have to buff and move around as well, so that damage number goes down in practice.

Palm Strike + Hand Knife does 3377% (30% defense ignore) and 3961% (20% defense ignore and additional damage based on enemy SPR) respectively with 4 Overheats, so about 29,352% in 3 seconds. In 1 minute, both skills can be used 4 times (with Golden Bell Shield, since there is no point using Golden Bell Shield to reset Energy Blast), so 117,480%. With God Finger Flick, that’s 176,112% per minute. Throw in the damage boost from Divine Stigma and Golden Bell Shield, and it’ll be evident that what Energy Blast takes in a minute with 45 seconds of channeling + the set-up time is overtaken by what Palm Strike + Hand Knife can do in 12 seconds over a minute (takes like almost 3 seconds max to use 4 overheats), which is abysmal in comparison of DPS. A 50,000% difference sounds odd in that regard.

While Energy Blast will take up almost all of your time to spam, Palm Strike and Hand Knife leaves ample time left to use plenty of other skills to buff up, heal up or do damage to widen that gap much more (there are quite a few classes that can easily weave in their damage in-between Palm Strike + Hand Knife cooldowns or just buffing up in general, and this is only talking about the classes that so far has received the skill factor changes). With Breaking Wheel, that’s double the Palm Strike + Hand Knife damage + most physical skills you have. Most skills, both magic and physical, now do at least 2,000% skill factor minimum with multi-hits with only about 1 second of skill animation or something instead of Energy Blast’s 5 seconds to get the buff and then taking 3 seconds to pull off. The new Moringponia 2H-Mace’s 145% final damage modifier with God Finger Flick also makes Smite a very good skill to DPS with, so there’s really no shortage of skills with better DPS than Energy Blast to spam until the next cooldown of Palm Strike + Hand Knife.

On the other hand, the nature of no-cooldown skills is that any time spent using any other skills, including skills from other classes, means less damage on no-cooldown skills. Any time spent using other skills means less time on Energy Blast. Since only Monk skills can trigger Monk’s Art Attribute, any non-Monk skills used means less time to set-up 5 critical hits for Energy Blast. This would probably be easy in a fight with mobs, but in a boss fight with only 1 target, setting up 5 critical hits with Monk skills becomes harder. If 5 critical hits cannot be done (maybe sometimes you can’t get 5 critical hits with Palm Strike + Hand Knife), then you’re stuck Double Punching until you get the buff (5 hits every 2 seconds). Any time spent doing anything else (buffing, moving out of damage AoE, using other skills) adds on to less time for Energy Blast, dragging that damage number down more and more.

On top of that, along with that set-up time, Energy Blast has a minimum requirement of having to use Double Punch stance, which limits Monks out of using Druid for Lycanthropy damage boost, something that most other cleric damage builds are free to use (and usually use). Druid has a lot of great skills to deal damage (takes like less than a second to use each) and also give more critical damage as well, so Monk misses out on that as well unless they abandon Double Punch and Energy Blast entirely. Most other buff classes do not have 100% damage buff up-time, at most 50%, while debuff classes, especially Oracle Death Sentence, is tricky to use with Energy Blast spam. Palm Strike + Hand Knife does not need that Double Punch requirement, and can simply be used any time you want. It should also be noted that while Breaking Wheel doubles the damage of Palm Strike + Hand Knife, it does not double Energy Blast’s damage. Even before the bloated skill factor patches after Monk’s Art Attribute came, kToS players have already caught on in less than a week that Druid-Zealot-Inquisitor is still better than using Energy Blast spam in Challenge Mode as Melstis’ and Drakonas Frieno’s damage play a big part of its damage (damage clearly fizzles out in boss fights). Energy Blast’s damage was just half full of hot air filled with fixed damage, and this will become worse in the face of the bloated skill factors in kTest as compared to the miniscule fixed damage of Drakonas Frieno and Melstis.

A Monk build focused around spending time to buff and use Energy Blast is ultimately worse than a Monk build simply buffing and using burst skills. Even in a burst damage build, Energy Blast will only be used as very short filler until a more important skill is off-cooldown (thus wasting time on Energy Blast buff AKA less Energy Blasts used until the next buff). In the long run considering whole character builds, Energy Blast’s damage is much worse in practice, and ultimately worse than Palm Strike + Hand Knife. I won’t try comparing between two classes for now since the numbers are still being adjusted, but I can argue the same points with Monk and Exorcist with mostly 15 second cooldown skills, though I don’t feel like doing it at all.

Double Punch … to be honest I believe IMC already gave up on this skill and just made it a buff trigger for Monk Arts Attribute. IMC had already openly admitted in Re:Build that they are bad at balancing Double Punch, or no-cooldown skills in general (probably the reason why Energy Blast is what it is now in kTest), and had been trying to balance it since ages ago to no avail, even now. At least it doesn’t use SP, but still, with how skill cooldowns for most classes are decent or quite low to begin with, there’s more than enough filler skills with more damage than Double Punch until the next skill goes off-cooldown.

I agree with this, to be honest this wave of skill factor changes simply came about because favorite classes aren’t allowed to be nerfed to avoid backlash from kToS players who only play meta builds with such classes. All this time taken into skill factor changes could’ve been used for more important things like the points you made with the balance issue, but alas.

The game right now is in the middle of a failing overhaul that won’t fix much. Can’t wait to see how many months it will take for IMC to decide on another overhaul.

Give this man a medal pls and let me break genbus :smiley: i dont mind lancer breaking genbus but i want to break em aswell :smiley: the more genbu breaking the better xd

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I actually watched 3 different Arts update Monk videos in 0.25 speed to find out the number of hits and damage growth.
Energy Blast deals a total of 14 hits with the arts buff(blast lasts 3 seconds, with one hit applied every 0.2 seconds).
First wave is 5 hits, first hit is 100% base SFR and from there, every hit increases in damage (~ 100%, 110%,120%,130%,140%).
Wave 2 also has 5 hits, but it starts at ~200% base SFR, with a similar increase in damage.
Wave 3 has only 4 hits because of the initial hit delay of 0.3 seconds, starting at about 300% base SFR and the same increase per hit.

Overall, we’re talking about 14 hits with an average SFR of 14x 240 x2 [~200% base factor averaged] = 6720% SFR before enhancement attribute & arts. With both maxed, we’re at 12096% SFR.
Since it is possible to squeeze 5 Energy Blasts into one window of the buff if you act fast enough ( one Energy Blast takes ~3,5 seconds to cast, so you have ~1-2 seconds open within a buff window to cast a 5th Energy Blast) that’s up to 60480%, but let’s say we need those seconds to trigger the buff anew, and let’s say we only manage 3 x the buff per minute, that’s still 145152% per minute(or about 157000% with Skiaclipse Mace ichor).

That damage is roughly the same as you deal with Hand Knife + Palm Strike combo per minute (ignoring the 50% strike debuff from God Finger Flick).

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Not sure what you’ve seen in those videos, but I went to kTest servers myself to test some up-to-date numbers for you (went back to test again just to confirm your calculations).

Energy Blast with Arts deals 11 hits, not 14 hits, and the hit rate of Energy Blast never changed at 1 hit every 0.3 second (video is affected by kTest ping, forgive me for that). I assume some Melstis/Drakonas Frieno damage procs got those extra numbers and confused your hit counts.

Since physical damage has some variance, I removed my weapon and attacked some mobs to confirm the increase in damage is as follows,

First wave (1st second has 4 hits) is the usual skill factor.
Second wave (2nd one has 3 hits) is double the skill factor.
Third wave (3rd one has 4 hits) is triple the skill factor.

There is no ~100%,110%,120% increment in damage at all and the increase in damage applies only starting the next second. I assume the fluctuations in base physical attack (2H-Maces do have a huge variance of roughly 2,000 physical attack) screwed some of your observations. So yeah, there goes your calculations.

Any news on the next balance patches :slight_smile: waiting for my beloved QS to enter the scene

Lets wait for the next doom patch on day 19 and see who will rise and who will be left do root.

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3 days before the Dooms Day will come to ktos.
hope they buff dragoon and Monk, curious what IMC will do.

Can’t wait for QS to be “fixed” with 3000% SFR on rapid fire and caltrops.

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Everyone is waiting patiently before smack-talk about the new balance. HURRY UP! GIVE US THE PATCH!

Everyone prepare your 'F’s for Joint Penalty and/or Aiming/Circling

judgement day is upon us

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Patiently waiting for murm instagib skill
:satisfaction:

I just think deploy pavise needs some kinda rework it’s so useless end game wise :frowning:

I didn’t see the explanation, but why are they changing aiming? I can sorta understand circling change but aiming changes make no sense.

This game already has horrible hit box recognition and the desyncing of player or mob locations, aiming is more of a qol thing than an op skill.

Opinion Alert: Aiming has huge implications in both pve and pvp and needs to be toned down. It negates all of the difficulties in Legend Crow p1 to the point where most groups wont even run the content without a falconer.

It boosts the DPS of certain classes that require a large hit box to an absurd degree, such as taoist.

In pvp, namely GTW it turns an entire attacking force into one big hit box, allowing single classes to level entire guilds.

It just takes the thought out the game. imo

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I know this is REALLY late…but just had to say didn’t know that sneak hit crit wasn’t its own thing anymore, jsut thought it is still independant from your actual crit rate just like a legendary marnox card would afaik

most of archer base class have very bad hitbox especially musketeer (since i play it, thats what i felt), or for another example is mergen sprinkle arrow or some stuff like spring trap, thats why aiming is needed.
but it utilized so much because it affect whole player in area party or not, nerf it to only affect caster and/or archer base class should be enough.

hoping they dont kill it like what they did to pass.