Tree of Savior Forum

Keep the game a challenge! Too many "casual gamer games"

General Discussion
#21

Difficulty must be balanced.

Casual players are useful and a very important part of the population. They usually pay money to buy shop items that pro players buy. It’s a win-win situation. They also has those cute glowing eyes when they see the pro players walking around.

Pro players are those who will spend hours and hours farming, leveling, upgrading… getting very rich in the process which will lead them to buy the stuff the casual players sell.

And there are those who won’t spend a penny and will play to their hearts content. Which is totally right.

Summarizing: Make the ultra cool stuff only available to those who really spend their time on the game and allow the casual gamers to have their slice of fun too.

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#22

Difficulty is a hard thing to balance, all that’s known right now from all the tests is right now the games bosses are too easy and only the false difficulty of the traps makes bosses a moderate difficulty.

MMOs have the magic of being able to have multiple tiers of content, it’s not a liniar RPG which you HAVE to do EVERY boss in order, it’s an online game you can skip bosses or challange bosses as you see fit. There is no reason at all not to add hard content for masochists for 450+ areas

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#23

Well, the contents we can test are only up to ‘middle’ area of what they plan for the full version.

And from what I’ve seen, it IS getting more difficult to fight as the boss get higher, the two most obvious difference being there’s no more warning circles, and the bullet hell patterns become harder to dodge, and some boss getting new attack to use.

It kinda reminds me of Monster Hunter series.
Where despite fighting the same enemies in the different tier, the tougher one isn’t just ‘more HP/damage’ (there’s that too, but that’s more to counter-balance you having higher damage/defense as well), but they are faster and have more things available, yet never to the point where you can’t react, and the really good players can solo something on the highest difficulty without taking damage.

#24

Casual gamers usually earn more money and spend more money without giving to the game or to themselves a hard time.

That said, IMO most games out there right now are dumbified and lame, gaming industry desperately needs complex games that branch and make you think, that place each player on a different road instead of forcing everyone down the same highway. And casuals do like complex games too, I’m proof of that. Heck I’ll stay away from simplistic games like the plague.

hmm the most complex or “hardcore” game I can think of right now that has a huge online playerbase is Path of Exile.
what makes it hardcore, because its grindy? Nope, the game is far from grindy, a dedicated player can probably get to level 100 in less than a month.
its considered hardcore because of the high learning curve demanded, becoming familiar with the mechanics and how the economy works takes effort, time and experience. The game forces its players to think and make choices instead of following a straight line.

Thats exactly what I expect from ToS, damn me if I have to spend large amounts of time grinding only for the sake of grinding, that doesnt makes a game less casual, just incredibly boring and full of bots.
Thats probably a preference of the “casuals”, working in real life they expect to have fun while playing a game, where players with more free time don’t mind if a game sometimes feels like work.

#25

Its all good and nice.games need casuals.casuals in no way = noobs.but in now days there way 2 much people that demending all the content will be scalable down so any one can do it even if he dont care for mechanics of the game at all.look at ff14 for this.so i really hope we will not see ■■■■ like this here.

#26

That is a lot of syntax I think. I think most folks think of casual gamers based on skill tier and less on amount of time anyone under the 75%. What you describe to me are weekend warriors! Yeah… that exclamation point has to be there. Smart guys and gals that love their games but have daily responsibilities. But maybe your definition is more common. It really is fuzzy even if you go on a game sorting site you can find a wildly mixed bag in the “casual game” section.

Right now we have no weekly caps on what is obtainable so at least when you’re talking about games that tailors to the time challenged I don’t think ToS is setup that way right now. But, it doesn’t go without throwing a bone to our time challenged brothers. We have the attribute system that has some similarities to Eve’s training system. As long as you got time to login at least regularly to keep your attributes training, or managing your vendor class you’re always going to be getting stronger by attribute and equipment, and the stronger you are the faster you level because of the overkill system.

Breakdown for those that were confused about that second paragraph:
–Attribute system takes real time to train, potentially days, attributes give you big bonuses up to double damage on skills. So as long as you keep yourself training you’re always going to be getting stronger.

–There are vendor classes that ensure as long as you stay stocked up on supplies you can make money even when you can’t play.

–Weapons can be upgraded to crazy high levels so making money is always going to mean you can get better equipment.

–Overkill system means if you hit very hard with the final hit to a mob you get big bonus XP up to 255% so you’re rewarded to be well equipped.

End result is what I said above… Even if you don’t have as much time you can still have some systems that will help you get stronger and XP faster then the front runners. As long as we don’t have hyper inflation or anything nasty like that at least.

1 Like
#27

On that aspect, not have to worry about build have its downside, but at least it dont lead to the stupity of have 1 or 2 useful builds on each class like many games out there have.

I consider myself a casual, but im not complaining about the chalegen the game offer, for instance, Titan EX i could never complete it, be it lack of group skill or me getting lag spikes because my location and crap internet infrastructure, i was aways having fun in there. The game itself isnt hard to figure out and play efficiently, but like you said, many are lazy to chalenge or even learn how to play the game because they get the dumb mentality of “im paying and i want to play the way i feel like” like i saw many times not only on FFXIV but on other paid games too.

This is one thing many games lack today.

Once upon a time where people talked to each other instead of the cussing and flaming because a single mistake made or because they have some name or think in some way, im still to find a place where people actualy interact with each other, other than just talk and toss junk talk (i do it also sometimes), So far the only place i had found a good clan/guild was in FFXIV which where very active, i got called to do many raids/dungeons every single day by a member and thats a thing that i miss on most mmo, GW2 for example, i joined a guild and only got called 2 times to do something together, 1 dungeon and 1 pvp match, most of time the guild looks like a parking lot, you just do your stuff alone and sit to rarely talk to each other.

I hope they fix the bosses and field monsters AI, i already said on other post that they are acting dumb for a fast paced combat capability game like ToS.

I do think too that the actual game its not even close to what IMC want to present us.

Honestly, this thing of “Pro players” is ridiculous, i dont want to offend anyone but, are you even getting real money out of it to be called professional? That can be applied to the mobas that do e-sport events out there with money/items as prizes. Well, a game should satisfy any gamer, be it casual or hardcore gamer, in the end of the day, the game is business, its money getting in on their(IMC) end.

Thats the wrong way of running things, honestly there are lots of ways to make the people who work hard feel satisfied, be it casual or hardcore, the game got quest system, how many possibilities there is behind that? How can one make a quest challenging enough to make the players feel acomplished at the end of it? I do hope IMC see what its in front of them and do it right, it will only mean that their game will be a huge success.

One thing that i like on PoE is the currency system, i think more games should adopt that, its so RPG-like, trying to reach to 100 get boring after some time, but its just my opinion, a good hardcore game i can think of is Eve Online, go wait 1-3 years to learn a skill level just to put that one gun/engine/ship specialization lol. But that too can be a challenge and it push to old school rpg in its way. Of course we dont want to wait months or years to learn a skill, but if there was some sort of skill branch that we could take some time to learn, by getting exp from using it would be nice too.

Ok, enough from me for today, i typed too much and people will start to complain lol. Later folks.

#28

That’s kind of off. Casual games don’t earn more money nor are they casual “because they are too busy working” Casual gamers are people who play a game maybe an hour or two every few days or log on for whatever daily log in rewards are and don’t spend any prolonged time playing any single game and aren’t “devoted” to a single game which they dump their spare time in. Ergo the casual term; without serious intent, without commitment, occasional.
It’s a proven fact that the most money spenders are the whales who DON’T have a job, but come from rich families and can splash out $1000’s on a game they enjoy for even the littlest thing, but they tend to stick to a game they pick (because they enjoy showing off what they have, the entire point of spending) so don’t get caught on that “because people are busier working they spend more money” it’s proven casual players actually spend among the least since they don’t actually care about the game which is what the whole reason casual is the term used.
No-lifers are the only gamer stereotype that is applicable to time spent, usually because they are the type of people who get on a game and grind for lengthy 12+ hour periods because they have to have everything as fast as possible.

TL;DR
Hardcore are the people who purposely make things difficult for themselves and enjoy the challange
Casual are the people who just play it whenever and don’t really care about the game and quit when it gets too hard.
Neither are time-spent-playing dependent.

Anyway
ToS is a primary PvE game. The entire point and fun of the game IS the levelling and grinding and progression. PvP is being forced in because so many people obsess about it. I have no hopes for PvP in this game at all, balanced PvP is counter-productive to what it’s design is. It should focus on having harder bosses and dungeons later on and thrive more on it’s PvE aspect so it can get away with broken skills and combos. Maple Story is a good and popular example of the game-flow ToS will have so it should focus on that, focus on story’s and quests happening as you reach each area, throw in increasingly harder dungeons and bosses. Throw some end-game content that requires strategy like a dungeon three bosses that only take damage from a single element and each one is weak to a different one or something simple but more than just DPS race and dodging.
The game will suffocate itself if it doesn’t have easy content, but it’ll dry out without any challange.

#29

Your last quote summarized it well :slight_smile:

#30

I can only talk from personal experience, from the friends and people I associate with over the years, those who pass 5-6+ more hours playing usually have no job and no big worries in life atm. They only spend money once or ever so long, heck some of them have never spent a dime AFAIK.
Those who play it a couple hours have other stuff going on, be it work or whatever, if they care enough about a game to the point of becoming a “regular”, they constantly spend money on the game, in a weekly basis for the most part. I usually socialize a lot with these gamers (maybe because I’m older than most), to the point we sometimes spend more time chatting than playing, lol ^^

I do agree on the whales, but your descriptions are a bit off if I may say so.
Hardcores are enthusiasts about the game(s) they play, they take the time to “study” the game and become skilled/knowledgeable in it. Some games are simpler by design and don’t take as much to master, hence why I used PoE for hardcore.
Casuals are more about fun and kill some time, they can be just as enthusiatisc about the games they play, but they’ll never take the time and effort to know a games inside out like the hardcore do (reasons vary), nor will they push it upon themselves to reach the “highly skilled” level that hardcores preach.

Playing and not caring about a game just means the game is bad. Last I tried was Skyforge for some time, never spent money, game didn’t grow on me, I left. Am I completely casual in this? Yes.
If the contrary was true, say I liked it and went 1-3 hours a day when able, I would likely have spent money. How much and the ratio varies based on what the game offers. Am I completely casual in this? Again yes.

I guess we both agree that spending on a game, its completely in the merit of the game itself, its quality and sales model.

#32

I hope this isn’t another topic where people are incorrectly comparing exp rates to “challenge”. I love challenging games and would love if the difficulty level of dungeons/bosses were increased in ToS, and hopefully the end game content takes a higher amount of skill and strategy to complete then just getting the best gear possible. But grinding and super slow exp rates do not make a game challenging at all, they just make things feel tedious and boring much quicker along with causing people to bot so they can feel like they are making progress in the game.

2 Likes
#33

all i see is about OP class here and there, so for IMC

the problem is not the CLASS, its the MOB. its too weak in defence, too weak in attack, too short to reach the player, too slow to react. If this game want to beat RO1, the developer must make the game in hardcore mode than in noob mode like this.

its too easy to SOLO everything, if we want to play everything in SOLO, should we just play console rather than MMO. Let me enjoy partying again in MMO

put different level MOB in 1 map, too avoid BOT, and to make the play more terifying. like while you hunt poring, you’l randomly met mimic. LOL

and CUT the main quest at half the CAPS level, so the rest will be decided by party hunt, raid , grinding etc etc.

Surely i dont wanna play game that i can maxed may char in just 2 week by questing, than ask for update like some noob gamer

#34

If now days you cant at some way “solo” the lvling in an mmo it will fail as all the noobs that plague the mmo games will leave.then they will have really low number and will be branded a fail.sadly this is how it is now days.2 much people that cant play more that 2 hours but thunk they deserve having all the things people that play more have .this people more or less is 60% of gamers now days.then there like 20-30 of political correctness cultists that will defend the poor noobs.i really hate it but this is how sad the industry now.people just want it alll for free.thats why mobas doing so good.

#35

Casual players can solo on easy zones or underleveled zones.
Hardcore players can solo anywhere, as WE are crazy enough to do so. Who cares about survivavility rates when you can do it the HARDER, STRONGER and FASTER way?

The very same applies for partying.

Join casual parties and meet new amazing people. Steadily level up and have some quality game play.
Or…

… Do it the Hardcore way…

How?

HARDER.
STRONGER.
FASTER.
And Sorry for party rocking~

Click on the pic for additional Hardcore Party Rocking.

Love xx

1 Like
#36

[quote=“sonkuri, post:28, topic:39819, full:true”]
I have no hopes for PvP in this game at all[/quote]

I am quite sure that many people disagree with you on that one - me being one of them.
Again an example from Ragnarok - It had World Championships! And i am confident to see this happening on ToS - why not?
All gonna be about the gear and stuff - ya for this you got PvE but only circled around the PvP aspects of the game. As in Huge Castle Sieges and as the Devs already mentioned, Tournaments!
Many games differ PvP and PvE - you go out and hunt players or do your battlegrounds and trade marks and coins and what not for your PvP gear - PvP players wont need to do PvE much.
In Ragnarok and most probably ToS youll see both combined - so you have to do PvE in order to get stronger in PvP.

#37

Thats wat i do mor or less . but way 2 much people will not.you cant have now days a game that will not have somthing like 200k players.as a free game it need 2 dell ssomthing 2 the players.2 sell they need players.if they dont do x $/€/£ a months then they will close up.so i hope you understand how cates here.

#38

Sadly from what i can see there some jobs that just 2 broken for pvp.monk is one of them.monk have crazy strong skill close and range.but if they balance thevjobs so at last 2 build for all the starter will be good the games pvp will work.

#39

As stated on the 54th article of the second protocol of the Geneva Convention, it is considered a war crime to perform indiscriminate attacks on civilian population hence I would ask you to refrain from your Dictionary Attacks.

… Just open them and learn something from it. Like Grammar.

Love xx

On regards to your comment, we were talking about ‘challenge’ and dificulty. Although the business model and how IMCgames will profit from the game is important as a whole it is not a matter of discussion on this thread.

#40

Well, I have nothing against casual players, but the game should focus on hardcore players, because I guess most players here are RO dedicated players
Casual games are boring

And the dificulty at icbt was ridiculously easy even for casuals, despite low rate

#41

You are so duny omg wow so much wow how you do it wow just wow