Tree of Savior Forum

In Depth Analysis. When does Grinding Works?

I wanted to try this again, but now on a more, specific subject. Focusing on 3 main points and the why they work and how they should be done on a game design level.

1.- Grinding
2.- Itemization - RNG effect.
3.- Monster Variety

First lets start with Grinding. Now, there are a lot of people complaining about it, and some people who just love it. In any case, i wanna explain when grinding is fun and how to make it work in a game, specially one with max lvl 600 who clearly expect players to grind for weeks.

The main point that makes Grinding fun is that it is optional. With this i mean games like Ragnarok Online or Guild Wars 2. In this games the “End game Content” such as PVP or MVP or WoE or Gear, had no level restriction, at least not in the sense of needing you to be maximum level. When you play games like WoW, were you Need to be max level, just to start raiding, Just to get gear, so you can pvp and esuch, it becomes a Task, not a game.
Also, the fact that levels are not as influential in one’s performance. For example, For those who played WoW, latests expantions have made it so that, when you are max level, you Stomp on anyone who is 2 or 3 levels bellow. And if you raid and get geared up, then you can beat 3 or 4 people who are 1 level below you, no problem. We could se the opposite on RO, where being level 80 or 95 were not as different, and gear was the main thing, so leveling was not as important, but gear hunting.

With this there is one more thing, the sense of progression and objectives.
Sense of progression means, that even when killing monsters that are level 1, or 100, you know you are leveling up, slow as it may be. This is usually the case, in games like Guild Wars 2, they set a maximum level to maps to make them more fun even. And the Exp Penalty goes against this. Also, the fact that there are item requierement tiers algo does the same. It makes it so that, you can’t grind anywere you want, because lower level maps, give lower level gear, and at the same time creates another problem which i’ll discuss later on.

We can all see how Swordman seems to be a dominant class, but this is not a problem of class balancing, but a deeper problem on the grinding system. Since there is this level restriction, basically you are forced to level on certain maps, which creates 2 problems.
-First, You have to fight monster that might be strong about your class, that means either element or weapon resistance, or just lack of damage, for example having a wizard’s spells always getting mobs to 10% HP, making it that another spell is needed which wastes mana and time, and since hey cant go to other maps and be as effective (and also dont have an incentive to, like gear or gems) they seem les efficient.
-The other problem is how the game enphasizes grinding. In most grinding games you have choice, you either mob monsters and kill them with AoE or go kill 1 on 1, either killing lower level minions with few hits, or sepnding a few minutes on 1 strong minion, going slower, but getting more exp in return, making it somewhat “even”, so it is a choice.

Currently, both monsters are easlily kited and die really fast, making it so that defensive status are less important to grind/survive the grind and also that AoE is the only option of efficient grinding, making it that single target classes like Archer, feel really weak in comparasing.

The last topic here is RNG and the excitment it generates. It is the same as when you killed a monster in Ragnarok Online and saw the card sprite on the ground, or opened a boosterpack and saw the rare card you wanted. This is something that most games don’t have and it makes the game far more enjoyable and entertaining. This can also be used as a method of Money Sink, instead of reagents for example. And this is a missed oportunity that TOS has because of tier restricted gear and the AuctionHouse, market. When you get to a tier, for example lvl 40, you can buy the best weapon, or second best weapon for that tier. When you kill a boss or a monster and hear the sound of a drop, you don’t get excited because you know with 90% certainty that it wont be useful to you. This, in turn makes it so that players have more money that has to be “destroyed” because it will all be sold at the vendor instead of trying to upgrade it (which is another moneysink, so more money is “not destroyed”). Also, the fact that you dont feel invested in your gear, since why bother upgrading, i will get better gear in 10 more levels. This is were Diablo 2-3 and Ragnarok Online excelled at. You could get this level 20 weapon that gave you just the +3 to the spell you used, and it didn’t matter it was 30 or 40 levels bellow. And there are examples of this, with items like Vubbe Fighter Gauntlets or Gamble that are more of a choice than a “better item level, better stats”. Hell, i still use my +10 stamina boots because i wanna run more, even if im level 80.

The same can be said for the new Gems or Orbs that are implemented. I just found out i have a few, and i didnt even saw them drop. That is a missed oportunity, since you can make it the same as Diablo 3 - Gear Hunting Simulator, were a Legendary Item has a whole “ritual” when it drops, and it makes it all epic. Seeing the Light on the ground, not knowing what you got, builds up to the moment of full emotion which could be happiness which makes the player happy with the game, or just this “so close” feeling that makes them playing even more.

I believe that the reason diablo 3 “died” as it is, is that characters don’t feel personal, you have 1 of each and can change them as you will, there is no real investment, and i think TOS has that covered, the game has this “replayability” that makes people make new characters and start over, try same classes with different builds and such.

To finish this i want to say that, i believe in games choice is an important part. Games that take choice and make it either automatic or just force you to do it are not fun, or end up burning you up. Im not saying give all the choices to players, but leave some freedom to the pace everyone has. Sometimes not everyone wants to party in a dungeon, and having dungeon exclusive items makes it so they feel excluded, They could go when they are overlevel just for the experience of knowing the dungeon or quests or gear that could be useful, but in the current state, no exp and no gear would be useful in that scenario.

This is my Humble Opinion, sorry for the mess, i always try to make it more organized, like a Walkthrough but i cant.

Atte.

This is one of the things i most like on my Games. And this is where ToS is lacking. When i saw the adivertisement “80 classes to choose and combine” i got very exicited. But now i’m very disapointed. Not only the gear have tier, but also the classes, and you know that in most cases, the lower rank classes will be always outclassed by higher rank classes witht the same role. Wich makes all the classe choosing a illusion. The lower rank classes are just stepstones for the higher rank, and most of their skills become useless as you get higher classes.

For me ToS is being a huge disappointment, and i’m not even one of those people that wanted ToS to be RO2. ToS have a lot of wasted potential, a lot of classes with interesting concepts, but that are plain bad in practice and no matter what variety we have, in the end the best is just to smash everything with a 2 handed sword.

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