Imo monsters AI, sorry to say, sucks

[hereWeGoAgain]

hi team, this is personal opinion, not objective one but it could be one with many supports

srry to say but IMO regular monsters AI are sucks

i played the game for like 2-3 years, with tons of hiatus moment. i enjoyed hunting monsters, especially early mobs. to me thats the main aspect of mmorpg.

i love the lore, the graphics, its soo my style. love magi works. i dont really care with lv, high end gears or everybody else progress, i just enjoy my pace as its pretty much soloable hunt game with little less party needed early game. but then the more i reach endgame (even early in midway) i felt like the hunt aspect of end game is kinda bland and soo boring mainly because the recent mobs AI are, sorry to say, sucks.

or was the hunting in mid-end designed to be, again sorry, dead?

early mobs AI not that awesome too in early game but at least theres some mentionable uniques one which uses player skill even though it barely hurt or effective.

thats just the short main reason.

the longer 5 reasons, its kinda long so read it if you got time or if you care to read :p

1. recent mobs are lack of identity. aside of what they wear, the element, and hp they pretty much all the same. its like they are some boring robots with basic basic AI doing the same basic attack and just dress differently. at least some minor differences can be applied to them instead of just debuffing, like performing skills, like how old mob does or how RO mob was.

2. only some bosses have identity especially recent boss or instance boss. regular mobs are neglected with just basic attack. only in certain instances regular mobs applying debuff. also majority of boss AI, especially old ones, are consist of non effective attack, skill, or moves thus question the value of the AI. ive ever read somewhere in receny patch that you buff early boss to be easier and thats like boss of lv <50 like what was it i forgot, was it the mushroom, the armadillo or even the kepa? wow. who ask this honestly? kplayers? does killing a boss that die over 2-3 hits with no outstanding AI really that hard? wow.

3. instance style kill hunting some others mmorpg could have dozens of instance but also not killing their hunting parts. the no mat drop, no personal craft, all union tiered gears (everyone wear legend/godess armor acc, the rest of tiers from common to rare? whats their purpose again??history), union weapon unique effect (vaivora and just vaivora, old weapon effect??dead neglected), no silver further kills hunting aspect of the game. now field hunt probably just to complete event or res sacrae quest. i remember in another mmo endgame i wouldve need to kill 10000+ of 2-3 mobs to get to another level, to get an item, or even material but here its about how much times you doing instance and the mobs come right at ya punching, ocassionaly debuffing, and die in less than 5 sec. some others mmorpg could have dozens of instance but still not killing their hunting parts.

4. mobs sprite/design to my personal taste is getting more monotone. this is maybe happens due to the main artist change or perhaps design direction changes, but recent mobs are all look into sort of theme but then the design execution end up giving them boring look. this probably happen somewhere around misrus maps or after irridian shelter mobs design i presume. for example all mobs in latest maps a are all red, in map b all purple just like that, and this color theme is too vibrant. of course this thematic color design is normal, even in old map, but recently the execution to me personally went overboard. personally i would prefer old mobs design which are more diverse even in one single map. for example remember that map where there are giant fruits? like durian or mangosteen? there are like many type of chipmunks, which diversed by their job, theres also moving seed and theres also an unmovable plant. i can sorta remember it, the visual, even i cant remember their name, but its more memorable! its like where i met zaura (maybe:p) but this new mobs design? sorry. the design become so generic that the mobs looks like from some browser mmo game with 50 servers,vip lv10 and a potion that make you become in-game-god.

5. talk about map, recent map is so empty!! for example new orshan maps. i knew that quests sorta managed in that star fame system, res sacrae quests, so on. or the map populated by too many mobs so not many human can live there, but a map with little to no npc? no quest? no story? you know what they would call it in another game? hunting ground which basically means nothing happening just get in there and kill the mobs, but was it ever mentioned its hunting ground? no. its just map, with mobs, with no clue on what happened. just hunt them with a little to no idea at all on what actually happened, the story behind it, how the map turn like that, how its intertwined with the main story line, what happened to the people, who needed my saviory help? nobody . compare it to old early game, pretty much all early maps have story, even continuous one, and its longer as well, with more npcs and their story, with side quests! now its all gone into this cool systems which actually rip of another essence of storytelling, journey and hunting.

thats about it,

i saw that new CM will make you seek the mobs, i also saw that new hunting ground with tanky mobs, i saw quest that makes you need to travel across maps. but that still wont solve the issue of boring mobs AI.

the star fame system, res sac quest etc are well manage repetitive questing system with fixed reward but beyond of how well its managed assigning quests, or how its certainly will give you reward according to your hardwork, the system personally gives me sense of burden instead of hunting freedom.

Even though that freedom perhaps may causes me to kill more than the quest need me or not giving me the item i want, i just love the sense of freedom, even if its cause me boredom in the end, but its excites me, instead of “ah… i need to grind 5 more weeks by doing ALL dailies to get x item from this star shop”. this feels like a deadline in real life which i really hate.

again this is personal opinion as i maybe the type to prefer not know what aheads of me in game. as if i know too much its just like me following a pattern which just gonna be boring! do this do that follow this follow that eugh! you who enjoy playing games by 100% following walkthrough would definitely against me.

Overall, i can understand this game directive, given its openly sell cheap way to almost max level by real money, with high end gears and everything, skipping all the old early grind, but hey if you are actually into mmorpg, and i mean actual mmorpg, even though you gonna spend mostly solo early game, thats where this game mmorpg fun actually lies. the early game sorta treasure. at least until midway.

[Hillgarm]

@hereWeGoAgain

hi team, this is personal opinion

@hereWeGoAgain

srry to say but IMO regular monsters AI are sucks

That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. No player in past or present will ever say the monster AI is good.

@hereWeGoAgain

recent mobs are lack of identity. aside of what they wear, the element, and hp they pretty much all the same. its like they are some boring robots with basic basic AI doing the same basic attack and just dress differently. at least some minor differences can be applied to them instead of just debuffing, like performing skills, like how old mob does or how RO mob was.

There’s also some different hitboxes and ranged enemies might reposition over long duration fights, but that’s still not enough. RO AI was also bad, yet it does a better job selling monsters identity, and that game is 20 years old…

The key point in here is the feeling of tension and windows of interaction. Both were lost once they shifted to the OHKO direction.

A good example (from RO) was the Wolves. They were passive monsters that were just strong enough so you would struggle fighting more than one at time and gave a decent loot and EXP, with a simple catch to compensate the benefits - Once a wolf attacked a player, all the other passive wolves would swarm the aggressor until one side was slaughtered.

This simple behavior opens up a lot of possibilities for party compositions and combat strategies.

• Kill the target before it can attack and trigger the swarm
• Attack from a position where the monster couldn’t react
• Lure a wolf out of the others wolves range and fight it on a duel
• Party with a tank (and healer) and have it to endure the swarm while you
• Have other party members to controls other wolves and minimize the damage taken by the tank.
• Get a team mate to take one hit and heard the swarm while coordinating with a several AoE attacks
• Play on a large party and have each member to pick a different wolf for simultaneous duels, preventing the swarm to ever happen, and side with the weakest ally once done

To top it off, the map also had aggressive snakes that could screw up your plan completely, so you also had to play around with those in mind.

It’s outstanding that one thing as simple as “help your kind” behavior can enable that many options for combat, and i’m completely ignoring what each class could do in case of failure, for something that was introduced in game at a point you wouldn’t be on the second class advancement in ToS. A single monster in RO has more combat depth than the whole ToS non-boss roster.

That’s how interactive combat with tension is made, instead of sandbag punching.

---

It’s not just for early game. These two elements made any stage of the game more fun as it pushes players into different play styles and play patterns. It enables experimentation on strategy and party compositions. It also tests players ability to adapt to unpredictable additions (like monsters different monsters joining in) and how to reduce the impact of their mistakes.

Not surprising that people get bored.

[santwillian2]

I appreciate you remembering that all these are opinions because for each one who agrees with you there will be another who thinks differently as sometimes I see a Korean in their forum complaining about the uphill being too difficult or the start of the game being too slow ( as in the case of IMC deleting the buff to reflect damage from some mobs because of requests from Korean players) which most of the time I disagree.

I wonder how unique you expect mobs to be when there are hundreds of them (I agree that some patterns are pretty outdated) and I don’t think it’s the best example to quote ragnarok since it’s as repetitive and potentially boring as Tos, I advise you to take a look at the description of the mobs in the adventurer’s diary some are very interesting like yak’s manbo tribe and although the most recent maps are not so relevant in lore I believe that in the older maps there are so many site quests (many very little visited) that meets this need.

Finally, I think Tos took a different path from ragnarok which is not necessarily a bad thing as most of the rag’s content is on its way to the end game (which has few options) which explains many differences between the games and o Tos in the end game activities speeding up the process ,I agree that some maps should be used more which seems to be being fixed based on this year’s roadmap with the manufacture of items in your house

[Hillgarm]

@santwillian2

I appreciate you remembering that all these are opinions because for each one who agrees with you there will be another who thinks differently

Absolutely, but again, that isn’t an opinion, that is a fact. AI is usually taken as a term to describe monster to X interaction. You can argue that it isn’t right to say it’s the AI itself that sucks, but the way monsters have no unique features and can be taken, or as the OP put it.

@hereWeGoAgain

recent mobs are lack of identity

(Which isn’t exclusive to recent monsters.)

I’d like to remind you that CM only became a thing because most people hated the field farming as a whole, which could be a combination of low monster respawn/density, terrible drop rates and monsters being sandbags.

What i can’t deny is that saying ToS needs improvements on the combat department isn’t a fact (that the opinion side), as we have no signs of IMC or the playerbase wanting that. Most of the players just don’t give a ■■■■ about that, they just want big numbers on screen and flex their gachas (yet the game struggles to go over 2k players).

@santwillian2

I wonder how unique you expect mobs to be when there are hundreds of them (I agree that some patterns are pretty outdated)

It is possible to add a lot of variety by combining two groups of elements. Just keep in mind that nothing can improve the combat experience unless players can be taken down. It can’t work if players can swipe hordes with one to three skills or if monsters can’t kill players.

On one side, more monster behaviors, as we only have aggressive and passive states. Here are some simple examples.
• Groupers - Collapse on aggressor whenever a nearby monster from the same species is attacked (like wolves).
• Distressed - Opposite of grouper. Will force any other monster nearby to attack the aggressor, regardless of their base behavior.
• Coward - Will flee if the aggressor isn’t being attacked by any other monsters.
• Territorial - Stays within a small area from the spawn point, turning aggressive to players that enter the area (smaller than the current AI radius, also may need to remove that restriction from others).
• Alarm - Distressed + Territorial. Orders the swarm if any player enters the radius.

Which can be extended to sub variants like.
• Warden - Grouper, but helps ANY monster in range.
• Pacifist - Coward, also casts support skills in any monster in combat that is in range.
• Gantlet - Forces all monsters from the same species to surround the aggressor without attacking, once one of them is defeated, a new monster steps in for a duel and the cycle repeats until one side is completely defeated. If any player attacks one of the waiting monsters, the others will trigger Grouper behavior (by far the least realistic, but it’s still interesting).

It can also have secondary elements to be combined.
• Curious - Follows the closest player without attacking.
• Unstable - Changes target to the closest player in range (that dealt damage to it in the last X seconds) if the current target moves too far away.
• Obsessive - Cannot change target unless the current one dies, ignoring taunts.

Another way to add identity is through conditional effects that can be applied as fixed (semi) permanent buffs. You can think of them like passives that have conditions to be triggered and/or disabled.

My pocket example is Kepa, the onion. Just give it a buff that makes it automatically cast a small/medium circle poison AoE attack whenever it survives slash (and maybe piece) damage, that is disabled after receiving an X amount of fire property damage and while it is frozen.

Here are some other examples from an old event suggestion.

@Hillgarm

Flame Type
Purifying Flame
• Upon receiving damage, projects a flame in cone at the opposite direction.
• Monsters are receive damage when hit by the flame.
Vengeful Flame
• Upon receiving damage, projects a flame in cone at the opposite direction.
• Players are damaged when hit by the flame.
Wicked Flame
• Upon receiving damage, projects a flame in cone at the opposite direction.
• Monsters are healed when hit by the flame.

@Hillgarm

Others
Echo
• When an unit with Echo buff is attacked, all units with Echo buff release a soundwave around them that deals magic damage.
Focus Power
• After being out of combat for 3 seconds or more, the next attack deals 50% more damage.
Frontal Guard
• Incoming frontal attacks are reduced by 25% and cannot be critical.
Ghastly Aura
• Deals damage on contact in a 0.5 second interval.
Horde
• Gains special effects whenever in contact with units carrying the Horde buff.
• AoE Defense Ratio +3
• Receives 10% less damage per Horde unit, up to a maximum of 70%.
• Deals 5% more damage dealt for each Horde unit, no stack limit.

And you could even have them stacking for multiple effects on a single terrifying monster.

Now, if we had 20 different unique effects (which could also have sub variations), and as few as 5 behaviors, we get a total of 100 combinations in a 1:1 ratio. It goes to 1900 if you make every monster carry two unique effects. It can go even higher if you add more of them, and even higher if you allow monsters to change behaviors whenever they reach a certain HP%. It is little work to give the whole database somewhat of a sense of identity.

@santwillian2

I advise you to take a look at the description of the mobs in the adventurer’s diary some are very interesting like yak’s manbo tribe and although the most recent maps are not so relevant in lore I believe that in the older maps there are so many site quests (many very little visited) that meets this need.

Cool… but that’s one aspect of monster identity, and it’s on an obscure corner that most players don’t even check. That single red slimes that explode when they killed is more memorable than the whole Yak tribe (it’s sad, they’re really cute).

[santwillian2]

Well my example of the yak tribe was more in the aspect of lore (actually in mechanics they are quite generic) but i agree with you in several aspects but i think the main reason for all this is certain “suggestions” (which i almost always disagree) from certain groups of players in regions more relevant to the game which reminded me of another case besides the ones I’ve already mentioned of a group asking to delete the ability to drain sp of some elite mobs from episode 12, finally many in the player base are already used to playing in a certain way and are against anything that defies that comfort.

[Thinking]

@Hillgarm

What i can’t deny is that saying ToS needs improvements on the combat department isn’t a fact (that the opinion side), as we have no signs of IMC or the playerbase wanting that. Most of the players just don’t give a ■■■■ about that, they just want big numbers on screen and flex their gachas (yet the game struggles to go over 2k players)

I would like to give an emphasis to this, as it is pretty much the reason why the community isn’t growing. Most people in tos are pretty much obsessed in numbers that it overshadows the important aspects of an mmorpg. If you search the forums, you could see that the most viewed topic is the iTOS weekly round-up thread, which shows the top guilds, top wbr, meta classes, fastest clears and etc.

Now, getting back on topic, yeah monster AI in ToS does in fact suck. It barely promotes or developes any strategy nor skills, so most of the time it is just a slug fest. (Like your typical mobile games) The only time you use your brain for is in skill rotation and in ways to get your numbers higher, and the only time it requires that perspective would be against the boss in raids.

So we have like only two interaction from monsters, first is passive and the other one is agressive the identity does not matter, it does not matter what the monster race was nor its size was when it hits you because all you have to do is kill it. But it doesn’t seem to be a problem as there seems to be only a few players or maybe none who cares at all.

@santwillian2

I don’t think it’s the best example to quote ragnarok since it’s as repetitive and potentially boring as Tos

And yeah, you maybe right, ro and tos are 2 different games. ro is an mmorpg and tos is a bit of an arpg. Both have flaws and in different generations of their prime. But if you have played in both of their peak, you can’t deny that you know most of ro’s monsters than tos monsters.
Because gameplay wise in ro, you’ll want to counter as much as possible the identity of the monster you are hunting to meet the most efficient tactics available. So when does that happen in ToS? yep only in Boss Fights.

Can’t blame anyone tho, as i said the two are different, with its linear game progression, simple designs and builds, I’d say tos is more built in as a mobile game, though the number of skills and items are the only problem to that.

And also that thing:

@hereWeGoAgain

i felt like the hunt aspect of end game is kinda bland and soo boring mainly because the recent mobs AI are, sorry to say, sucks

“hunt aspect” is one of the things that imo, some if not most players crave. It just doesn’t have that feature, or better yet has been removed along with the field bosses. I can understand if by having the content violates the convenience of others or the rules set in the game. As players in most cases, would rather abuse than to report something in the game. It is just my opinion anyways. But if you look at it in a way, you could say that monsters were only put there to hinder the progress, be it leveling or gearing.

Not even the elite monsters are worth hunting and still you want to kill as many of them as you can in end game

[hereWeGoAgain]

@Thinking

Most people in tos are pretty much obsessed in numbers that it overshadows the important aspects of an mmorpg

so agree on this one. idk why those veterans obsessed over new goddess gears, multiple vaivora ichoring?, or even new kind of items like another seal, relic alike and more stuffs like that in the future when in the end most of time they will just fight against same punching bags.

its like why would i care sooo much of my shiny armors and stuff when a huge troll im facing, scary it is, but all it can do is try to get near to me and swing his club, perhaps occasionally debuff, and thats it. though the troll hit harder then a slime, its no different than fighting a slime which just gonna bite you and you had to kill it with your full shiny armors and hit it with your strongest nuke.

ofc im not talking about big bosses which they seems soo focused into. im talking about the rest of the mobs which are like 90%+ mobs in database that even you are not gonna look back and kill them they are just neglected. ofc veteran most likely wouldnt care but if you are expecting newcomers, especially with strong sense of rpg, the only things will nail them are the beautiful magi arts, the early story, the mechanic that long gone like treasure, field collection etc and thats it. those majority are long gone features.

what is this situation? are they just expect them to join the game, hopefully buy growth pack and kill bosses like misrus so on just to feel sense of mobs AI? ofc its doesnt have to be that outstanding AI, not even like that RO wolves, but at least as simple as using maybe a copy of player skill in monster version will just give them something unique thats just bare minimum for me at least

@Thinking

or better yet has been removed along with the field bosses.

more like or worse. instancing is too overwhelming in TOS thus killing field hunt. they try solution to prevent like field drop of mat/weapon over grinding, overpopulated maps that would increase channel/server activity, and even comes to silver drop gone to stop dampen botting, but in the end they kill field hunt itself by giving basically questionable drop (i still personally think mb drop is a joke), kill personal craft, and shrink build options.

i get it they will get that traveling quest, which will force you to embark on journey but thats not fixing the punching bag mob situation and the purpose of the journey itself which is just bland

and when it comes to build, even its rebranded as “re:build”, if you compare, sorry but again with RO since its kims, which deliberately having linear build/progression, they still have more deep inner build variety. for example when you check RO sura page theres like 7 build, archbishop got 5, RG got 5 thats just how deep build variety are. meanwhile in TOS a class will implicitly become main and the rest are just support, for example does a zealot ever be a main when its red class? does hackapell ever? does corsair ever? and so on… nah they never really. and to top it is their solution is patching them with one single weapon with single effect. will we ever see the depth of TOS builds who supposingly having more freedom of re:build? you know back when its circle system, crazier it is, harder to manage it is, it has more potential of builds crafting, thats also supported with the situation of the live of field hunt.

the last time i remember i truly hunt with exciting purpose was hunting mats for a unique personal crafting lv 300ish boots that give extra SPR with my ff linker.perhaps its sound silly when probably veterans are farming millions silver, but hey like i said i dont care others pace, i just enjoy what i called hunt moment. ( forgot the boots name but i felt that the mobs hit me harder, before the age of legend gears, or maybe i was so weak :p. )

or maybe field bossing in actual field map. trying to fing it and get first hit and call others

well in the end, the truly end conclusion, since this game pretty much kplayers controlled i could only assume kplayers taste, their vision, is just not my vision of a good mmorpg. neither imc.

[santwillian2]

Well there I go with a totally unpopular opinion…
I won’t comment on ragnarok any more since many here are incredibly biased towards it, and I’ve played ragnarok and it’s not all flowers is notorious for a LONG time and much more than in Tos that some classes and skills are much much better than any other which makes me wonder why some are still not on some ragnarok forum instead of being here if there is so much better and finally I believe that as with those obsessed with big numbers you are also just taking into account one aspect of the game (which I partly agree needs to improve) and judging it as a whole.

[hereWeGoAgain]

@santwillian2

one aspect of the game

well i do respect your opinion but like i said in my final conclusion if your taste suit kplayers taste or imc direction you will certainly be satisfied with game situation, good for you, but sorry i cant say the same thing as what you think is “one” aspect is are big major aspects of what makes mmorpg an actual mmorpg, and ones that i pinpoint here are the dead state of field hunting freedom/excitement and the absence of mobs AI.

rite now we are basically just hunt for the repetitive quests to get weekly/daily deadlines complete to get that exact item from shop by genocides punching bags. future traveling quest will just exactly the same with exception it force you to walk, passing by punching bags in different suits.

and to call it AI might even too dreamy for current IMC finance state for their development cost plus the life support state, thats why like i said even a simpler copy of player skill like how some old mobs did would do but i think thats also still too much so yeah, its better off just me to give up on the game rather than hoping it would survive another year for selling actual good content, not costumes or occasionally in game items.

may the goddess gears and all future incoming gears and more power ups keep you happier and stronger in game.

[santwillian2]

Yeah yeah the game will die like dozens before you already said year after year and the game is still alive…
Anyway, much of what you said is not very different from the other game that was taken as an example and I disagree with your reasons and I have mine but I also respect your opinion and wish you good luck and that you find a game you like.

[Blackwargreymon]

field hunting feels boring because the purpose of field hunting is locked over fixed repetitive questing system, not a free one where you start by research item/mat drop through guide/internet or even freely explore and start do the hunt for example like the old hunt of wind runner or didel grandcross which so memorable to me. then they shifted to dungeon/instance drop since era of arde dagger with an intact mat drop and personal crafting until era of skiaclipse. and finally the current situation they just rip off gears variety, living with one tier option, one weapon option, no more mat drop, just powders and mb.

the current system may promises reward but on the other hand it also kill the excitement of hunting. i got it why you felt its like a deadline because it is. the supporting purpose of field hunting like silver gone, useless mb hunt-able way easier in quick instances to hit the max limit, no field drops variety from mats to gear as previously important random stat gear is rerollable and the rest is only about vv and thats it, personal crafting been dead since arrival of son of ferghus, telliavelis.

you figured, that only boss even recent one can have some sorta AI
because the only thing they did to regular mobs just giving them new look, bigger hp, harder hit and thats it. they simply cant afford it.

people who said your reason is not reasonable, they are the unreasonable one as they just feel insecured their current active playing game being badmouthed by facts. would you be angry when your gf is being badmouthed even when its true? yeah kinda like that. to the point that make them unreasonable.

you know what its called?

Bon Jovi - Blind Love

[Repel]

ask imc to add monsters AI pretty much like asking wheelchairs user to run lmao
its a bless already that this game survive for another year!

just giving them skill not actually an AI without something even more unique and robust like activating requirement, trigger, ability to read situation like attempt to flee when hp low, heal, calling reinforcement, etc etc.

this game is good, or more like was good, but it just cant be that great. its destined to not be.
everyone who plays this game long enough would`ve know that this game dreams nothing.
just to keep daily p2w player to survive another year at best.