Tree of Savior Forum

IMC please buff Shinobi invis or nerf Scout's Cloaking

General Discussion
#12

I agree but you’re missing a crucial element of this comparison.

Shinobi invisibility is not removed by attacking.
Scout Cloaking is removed by attacking.

With a buff in time to the length of Shinobi invisibility this effect will start to become a very large problem very quickly. It already causes problems in pvp where I can go invisible and throw Corsair Hook while invisible to hold in place without any real threat to me.

If I had more time I could easily run around throwing Helm Chopper and Seism stuns at enemies multiple times.

When Murmillo comes out invisible Shinobis using jump+headbutt aoe stun? It’s going to be very powerful.

I agree that changes need to be made here, but we need to be fair about the strengths that the move currently has, it is not pointless and is quite powerful as it currently is, it just looks weak compared to cloaking having such an absurd length of time.

I would be happy with a buff that stops Shinobi invisibility from being removed upon getting hit/attacked by the enemy. This would allow for the skill to be used to disappear in the middle of combat to run away, like a Ninja using their Ninjutsu Bombs, as seems to be intended by the class change quest too.

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#13

Or, to put it a more reasonable way,

Shinobi: Super invisibility that lets you use skills while invisible and ■■■■ on people, also has the potential to deal enormous burst damage and gets a fairly strong attacking skill all for one rank.

Scout: Literally just stealth and hide-in-barrel gimmick until circle 3.

Actually even with the karacha set, this rotation does ■■■■ all damage compared to most good PVP builds. Rogue sucks a whole bag of dicks right now.

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#14

Scout cloaking is removed by DEALING DAMAGE, not attacking. Currently playing bokor, and most scout cannoneers try to Cannon blast me down, but i’m under mackangdal effect and it deals no damage… And he remains invisible.

It should be removed as soon as he uses a skill. Not like shooting a fcking Cannon blast is not going to show his position, logics.

#15

… if IMC’s to buff shinobi
i’d like to ask for the following:
KUNAI

  1. increase range (its kunai! it should be a bit more farther than this!)
  2. increase base damage
  3. increase damage bonus per level
  4. reduce cooldown

Mokuton

  1. Reduce cooldown

Bunshin

  1. Fix the delay causing the copying of skills to get bugged and make it move as fast as the main body
  2. reduce cooldown

Katon

  1. increase base damage
  2. increase damage bonus per level
  3. reduce cooldown

Mijin

  1. increase base damage
  2. increase damage bonus per level
  3. reduce the hp consumed by half… at lvl 1 the skill consumes 6500 hp plus 5 bombs (1500 Silver) for 2403 flat dmg scaling seriously??? add maybe 25% of my current max HP and it would be much more reasonable.

reduce cost of bombs to 50 or 100 each… 300… im effin cheap i won’t spam them skills

… this class wants us to take con and dex for bunshin and mijin but the price to pay is so so… you guys might’ve noticed that im asking for reduced cooldown of 4 skills … why?? dude we’re ninjas and ninjas move fast we don’t wait for enemies to kill us we kill the enemies before they even try to kill us lol…

ON TOPIC
im with what OP’s suggesting but tbh… im fine with how shinobi skill works it just needs to get tweaked make it in equal terms with what we sacrifice for a certain skill like mijin its just not that appealing for me to use… well it has its uses on pvp rofl…

#16

Logics…in a world where u can shoot a fireball from your staff.

#17

and then you remember this game doesn’t work like that

because there is scout cannoneers and scout musketeers who get more burst than they know what to do with
they get the damage and the utility

and that hide in barrel gimmick can win you games

whoever thinks rogue is for damage though

no…its for capture and thats about it (to steal safety zones :D)
the other utilities are too gimmicky for a pvp skirmish situation

and resorting to melee on an archer is silly
why backstab when you can shoot a musket or cannon?

rogue and scout are both pick 1 circle and leave it alone circles atm

luckily you can be a rogue scout cannon/musket and it does 0 impairment to your burstdps

#18

I like this idea. Shinobi needs better escape mechanisms as they should be hit and run types. I think IMC tried to do that with Mokuton, and stealth from Katon and Mijin but failed miserably because of bugs and the fact that 9/10 you will get hit after using those skills with people around, which will break stealth.

#19

Except Scout invis is litterally the only good skill and only reason to go scout.

I still regret going scout though, invis wasnt worth it.

Nerf it and gives me a class reset, k then.

#20

I don’t even see why you compare the two when Scout’s Cloaking has so many cons.
Scout loses their invisibility when they are hit, when they jump or when they deal damages.
It totally is balanced in my opinion since you can’t stay invisible all the time, because you won’t just stand around and do nothing, you’ll use a skill and get out of it, and you’ll have the 30s cd until you can use it again.
I’ve never been os by an archer in PvP with Cloaking, but to each their own.

You want 20s of Katon and 40s to Mijin ? You want to have a 100% chance to crit with it + movement speed ?
You don’t want it to be fair, you want Shinobis to be OP because you love that class, that’s all.
If you give longer invisibility durations to Shinobi or an attack boost when they’re invisible it’ll then be unbalanced compared to other classes.

At least Awoooo makes more sense and truly wants it to be fair. Not to make Shinobi the next meta class.

#21

Why don’t you just Reroll to a Scout? stop complaining man…

#22

And there are sword3 shinobis and there are hoplite shinobis and there are highlander shinobis. What’s your point? I guess as per usual you don’t really have one.

Hide in barrel gimmick can win you games if the game comes down to literally one or two autoattacks of damage. If some retarded swordsman is actually standing there trading hits with your while you’re in your barrel you’re not really PVPing you’re fighting a bot.

#23

And please make sure before making a new character that u know all the skills that you will have and if u feel good with that, go lvl it up, if u don’t feel it’s for you then keep searching for the class that fit you the most.

#24

they wanted to fix the mistake of not making thief basic class that would sneaky sneaky melee dps in ToS… so they just randomly threw shinobi into swordsman tree and didn’t even bothered to give him proper ninja/shinobi kit that would fit the trained assassin/spy type when they already have half of assassin kit over whole archer tree (QS with caltrops, rogue and it’s backstabbing, scout with invis, wugu with using poison and darts) AND instead they made Shinobi as another spear user that’s some kind of bomber&masochist (self damage with Mijin and more damage taken thanks to clones)…

When you think Ninja/Shinobi you see elite assassin that use katana, short sword+dagger, shurikens and kunai + move in “shadows” … while ToS Shinobi is another front row warrior using spears that gives a flying ■■■■ about being stealthy assassin/spy… it’s quite irony since even Shinobi change quest is suppose to show that Shinobi is master of killing when enemies don’t detect you.

  1. add attribute that allows to change damage type from pierce to slash
  2. add bleed or slow attribute

regarding other points:

  1. Kunai is Fan type AoE. The bigger the range the bigger would be spread of all projectiles so it would be harder to hit small/medium enemy + only 1 kunai would hit. You usually try to hit enemy with Kunai in melee range after all just like Rangers use Volley in melee range
  2. agree
  3. agree
  4. Kunai already have nice cooldown but yes 1-2 seconds lower would be ok but more would be to much

I didn’t picked this ability yet so it’s hard for me to tell something

BUT

I heard that this ability is super PATHETIC in PvP because of the DELAY. Enemies usually will get away from the spot where are you are suppose to land. It should be instant

just look at that DELAY

it’s disgusting and no wonder it’s useless in PvP

  1. Agree. That delay is annoying as hell. You use Kunai 2 times in a row and clones use it only once. Heck I sometimes used bash 3x times in a row and clones didn’t even bothered to use it lmao
  2. low cooldown would make this skill OP I think
    better change would be
    3.1 remove the “Shinobi takes [insert here number of clones] x more damage when clones are active” part + increase cooldown of skill for balance sake and to avoid archers/wizards whining that Shinobi suddenly deals solid damage without drawback (archer/wizard can without drawback but swordie can’t :^)…)
    OR
    3.2 emove the “Shinobi takes [insert here number of clones] x more damage when clones are active” part + reduce damage of clones from 100% to 50~75%
  3. let clones use Barb and maybe Corsair skills (Hexen would be to much but maybe Dust Devil?)

Katon and Mijin should be overall scrapped and Shinobi should get 2 new skills

  1. cloaking/invisibility spells with max 1~3 levels
  2. other could be something new like:
  • throwing giant huma shuriken/boomerang
  • throwing bola to slow/root enemy
  • some kind of poison weapon enchant
  • poison attack (shinobi covers weapon with deadly poison and next attack deal additional damage and poison enemy + reduce it healing taken by x%.)

No one takes those skills to be honest. Katon is picked at lv 1 just for the invis and Mijin is skill for masochist… Bombs are way to expensive (if you start spamming Katon you will be poor super fast) and the fact that you can’t craft them is already annoying. Not to mention that Shinobi master is place in some stupid far far away map without teleport statue (we should unlock Shinobi trainers in all 3 cities after becoming Shinobi…)

or give Shinobi ability to craft bombs. We get so much useless junk from monsters (specially from grind and low lv maps) so there shouldn’t be a problem to come up with some kind of recipe.

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#25

Same applies to Shinobi, except dealing damage but that doesn’t matter too much in 5v5 because you’ll likely get hit and if you don’t the duration is so short anyway that by the time you get within range you have like 1 or 2 seconds to try and do something.

Perhaps the requests from OP are a bit much but if you’ve played Shinobi in TBL you’ll find out that 8 seconds won’t cut it. In that time frame you have to dodge traps, ground spells, assess the enemies’ position, run within melee range and hope the lag doesn’t ruin your hook. Then you have to hope some AoE that was meant for your allies doesn’t suddenly appear on top if you. It doesn’t stop there. After you miraculously clear all those conditions you have to hope your clones didn’t fall behind too much that they’re outside striking distance. In that sense a few more seconds would be nice to allow you to assess the situation and act like an actual ninja instead of going kamikaze to make the most of that small opportunity. On top of that the downtime is long when Scouts can have 100% uptime.

Scouts on the other hand can take their time and wait for the right moment. They get bonus damage from it and they can Back Stab, Snipe the backline casters, etc. and cloak right after if needed. Sounds very Shinobi like to me.

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#26

give us rogue backstab, you can have kunei and our clones.

#27

SURE, but while we at it, make scout a rank 7 hidden class where you have to wait days to get a useless flower and even more days to gather ingredients to craft. PLEASE take our clones (that dont even copy skills properly) and kunai (that doesnt even have a good range) and hidden quests to unlock and give us just that 1 skill.

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#28

the point is

scout has burst from its other circles and still gets its stealth
whether you like it or not

so your point about shinobis getting burst and stealth is absolutely pointless

and hide in the barrel gimmick has won games if u

look in the thread i linked

but again you just read what you want to read

plus all of OPs points about shinobi being way harder to get yada yada

#29

If Shinobis invisibility allows attacking/using skills while staying hidden then i think lowering invisibilities cooldown or increasing its duration would be way overpowered. Using skills while being invisible is a huge advantage.

That being said, they could make it so even when taking damage it does not cancel invisibility so shinobis stay invisible for the entire duration no matter what.

#30

This looks completely overpowered. I’m 11th on Fedi with my Shinobi right now. It doesn’t need THAT much more to be better. I’m not even max level, I’m level 235 and I’m ranking HIGH.

Mokuton doesn’t need a buff, it needs the bugs fixing that cause permanent stunning and an invisible player character.

Kunai don’t need better range, they’re already give Shinobis the ability to proc Restrain at range. It only has a 15sec CD and 2 charges yet you want to reduce CD even more? Noooo.

Bunshin needs to be completely reworked. Using it in PVP is a death sentence against any competent opponents. It simply can’t be used in PVP at all currently with the damage multiplication that’s taken by clones.

Katon - Damage maybe. But it’s not really a skill for damage, it’s a skill for the invisibility. Cooldown? No that’s an overpowered buff.

Mijin - Reduce the hp consumed, yes.

Cost of bombs? Yes. I use 108 bombs per PVP hour currently, bombs cost 300k per 1000. It’s not as bad as Backmasking but it’s pretty costly.

Way too much OP. I get that you want your class to be better, I do too, but people need to be more realistic as all of this combined would put me at number 1 on the leaderboards with ease. That’s not going to “balance” the class against others.

To answer some of the other points brought up by others in the thread: Mokuton delay is fine when used correctly. It does huge splash and procs a very large slow on all targets it hits. You literally slow the entire enemy team with it when using it. The problem is the 10 bugs it has that make you guaranteed to die when you use it in anything other than a 1v1.

I like the idea for Shinobis to craft their own bombs.

I don’t think Shinobi is intended as the traditional ninja but as the mythical Shinobi that use magic and fight head on, often in 1v1 duels. I have no problem with this, the issue is simply that Shinobi itself has problems that have been brought up so many times for months with nothing to address it. I myself put tickets in with some of these bugs.

Poison attack would be very welcome on Shinobi, using Shark Cutter+Venom as the weapon combination to inflict both bleed and poison with Hexen Dropper and Dust Devil usage is obviously intended for the builds. Expanding on that with other poison synergy would be nice. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect them to scrap skills though, they’re not going to take away invisibility that people have already made builds around.

#31

Haha sorry if my wants sounded op im just trying to make the ninja thingy more realistic as op as it may seem but we all know that ninjas are agile as anyone can be they’re trained for fast movements, swift assaults and sneaky tactics which imo is what we already have but is really being held back by the bugs and due to long skill cooldowns hehe dont get me wrong i understand what you’re trying to say and mine is just a suggestion hehehe :grin: