Tree of Savior Forum

How are classes balanced?

Lets start with the big one: Base Stats

Sum of Base Stats

  • Swordsman: 25
  • Wizard: 25
  • Archer: 24
  • Cleric: 22

Right off the bat, we see that some classes get more base stats than others. Sure, 1-3 stat points aren’t THAT significant, but it shows that there is existing bias towards which classes get to be more “balanced” than others. Now lets take a look at the sum of base stats without their unused stat. Int for Swordsman and Archer, Str for Wizard.

  • Swordsman: 23
  • Wizard: 22
  • Archer: 21
  • Str Cleric: 16
  • Int Cleric: 15

Now the difference in stats has risen to 8 points. Swordsmen has 50% more stats than an int Cleric. I can’t think of a good reason as to how this could possibly be fair. You could argue that Clerics are supporting so they don’t need as much stats. If so, then why aren’t the offensive classes, Wizard and Archer, as strong as Swordsmen?

From what I’ve seen and played, ToS is a heavy quest roller coaster. Finding someone with the same quest objectives as you is very rare at low levels. Thus you spend your early levels soloing your way up. These early levels are where stat points have the most impact. 20-30 str is a lot more noticeable on low hp mobs as opposed to 200-210 str on high hp mobs. The imbalance in stats may not be significant towards the end, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s unfair.

Why design around imbalanced stats when it’s so much easier to design around balanced stats?


Max HP/SP

Swordsmen have triple the HP of Wizard and more than double the HP of Clerics for the same stat investment. Swordsmen SP pools are pretty much identical to Wizards, if not better since Swordsmen skills cost 1/3 to 1/2 the amount Wizard’s skill’s cost. Archers’ skills cost less than Wizard’s but more than Swordsmen’s giving them the least effective Max SP to SP cost ratio.


###Class Bonuses

Clerics have:

  • Level * 1.675 additional Max SP
  • Level * 0.25 additional SP recovery

Due to this, as long as you’re not spamming any no-cd skills, you will never run out of SP except when tackling field bosses or long term grinding. This removes the need for them to get any SPR whatsoever to fight, despite the plethora of skills they have that get bonuses from SPR.

Because of the Max HP modifier and Cleric’s innate SP bonus, Clerics have strictly better Max HP, SP recovery, and Max SP than Wizard for the same point investment, always.

I would argue that this is the most significant class bonus. You could argue that the loss in base stats is to compensate for having the best class bonus, but I see that as a poor argument. I’d much prefer balanced class bonuses and base stats. Apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. It’s more pleasant and easier to compare different colors of pencils than to compare pencils to markers or paint.

Archers have:

  • (Level + 4) / 4 additional Accuracy
  • Level / 5 additional Critical Rate
  • Level / 8 additional Evasion

Basically, Archers effectively have more Dex than other classes. For example, at Lv120, an Archer will have an effective +31 Dex worth of Accuracy, +24 Dex worth of Critical Rate, and +15 Dex worth of Evasion.

Swordsmen have:

Level / 4 additional P.Def. Mostly irrelevant since your defense doesn’t scale off of anything and it will never reduce damage by a noticeable amount proportional to the level of mobs you would normally fight against.

Wizards have:

Level / 4 additional M.Def. It’s largely irrelevant for the same reasons as P.Def. The additional M.Def doesn’t even allow Wizards to take hits better than Swordsmen due to their significantly lower HP pool. It is also worth nothing that a Cleric will always have better M.Def than a Wizard because the M.Def formula uses MaxSP in its calculation. Clerics have Level * 1.675 additional Max SP. A Cleric at Lv1 will have 34 more M.Def than a Wizard from 1-100ish and around 50 more M.Def than a Wizard at around 200ish. In summary, Wizards have a bit more M.Def than Archers and Wizard, but less than Clerics, and are still more likely to die in combat to magic attacks than Swordsmen or Cleric.

M.Def formula: (Level / 2) + (MaxSP / 5) [ + (Level / 4) for Wizards]


Basic Attacks

Without even looking at skills, you can see that the favored classes are Swordsmen and Cleric , while the unfavored classes are Archers and Wizards. Coincidentally, Archers and Wizard have the ability to attack from a distance with their basic attacks at the cost of being unable being to hit multiple targets with their basic attack. In addition, Archers and Wizard attack more slowly than Swordsmen and Clerics since their attack must hit before they can attack again. Due to animation times caused by attacking from a distance, this means they attack slower. You could get closer to get the attack speed back, but then you’ll basically be fighting like a Swordsman or Cleric minus the ability to hit multiple targets. Finally, Archers can’t attack in the air, which effectively gives them the slowest move speed while attacking.


Buff Slots

It’s not just stats either. Swordsmen get 7 buff slots. Everyone else gets 5 for no good reason.


I don’t want this thread to be about anything beyond the base 4 classes. Balancing from the bottom->up is easier than balancing from the top->down. A sturdy base foundation goes a long way.

5 Likes

You forgot the secondary stat balance as well: STR gives much more damage-wise than INT.

Adding M.Amp to INT might be a way to alleviate this^ issue… or allow magic crits. Dex/Int wizards should be a thing.
Or combine both: INT adds MAtk and MAmp and magic attacks can crit for MAtk + Rnd(MAmp).

why aren’t the offensive classes… Archer, as strong as Swordsmen?

Archers … attack more slowly

Due to animation times caused by attacking from a distance, this means they attack slower. You could get closer to get the attack speed back,

Finally, Archers can’t attack in the air, which effectively gives them the slowest move speed while attacking.

Incase you havent been following the game changes in kToS. Everyone is talking about Quarrel Shooters being the most OP class right now. and cleric hidden class Chaplain activates Aspersio (Priest skill AoE cone magic attack/buff) for every single attack.

but tldr;
another Swordsmen OP thread i assume?

3 Likes

But you can easily defend against STR attacks with Evasion or Block and you have like nothing against Magic…

perma block if a FullSupport build Chaplain is in your party

ontopic : they are balancing the first few classes, as we’ve seen in the latest changes from kobt to release

9 Likes

cleric uses all 22 stats, there is no useless for thas tree. You just focus what you think you’ll need.

So if str gives max capacity, you will need it too right?! So you cant say its unused.
So int is useless for swordie and archer, till you get a skill to scale with it …

1 Like

hoplite attribute increase damage from int , but better invest to str

They’re balanced by their skills, attributes, and utilities.
Outside of Swordsman health pool, and Archers crit bonuses, everything else is largely irrelevent.
All Clerics have access to heal, their health pool difference vs Swordsman means nothing given Clerics have self sustain from level 1 that scales slightly on target health.

Things to actually watch out for are
Peltasta C2/C3.
Wizard C2 specifically
Psykino C2/C3.
Hunter (dont understand why they nerfed it again, but im remaking a hunter for more testing).

and potentially a couple more more within that Rank 1-4 category.

Everything changes, IMC has eyes on everyone :smiling_imp:

I love this more than I should. Lost it at the honey, I’m leaving you part.

In game balancing departments, this is what one would refer to as SFF(= singular factor flaw).
You take a look only at isolated factors by themselves, ignoring how they come into play or how they affect and are affected by other factors of the game.

The imbalance of one factor (i.e. the base stats) can be favorable for the balance of the game as a whole. Less stats for the Archer class may have counterweight factors (i.e. Archer being ranged, skills being more powerful etc.). All the different factors together make a single construct for each class. Attempting to rate classes based on a single part of this construct will always give off a distorted picture of how it really is.

And even if you considered all the balancing factors in your attempt to judge the classes, there is no point to it if you go at it with propositional logic.
What you would have in front of you, if you layed out all the factors and how each affects the other, it would resemble a complex web or a network. And with each change you make to one factor, you affect other factors too.

A good developer team knows to appreciate the concerns of their players, as does any company of their customers. And every part of your text figuratively screams concern. However, you should reflect a bit on your thought-processing, so that the next time when you have to express something, you can do so with the affirmation that what you write is also what you truly believe. I’m pretty sure you would have arrived at the conclusion that this isn’t quite how balance works if you had just given it a few more thoughts.

7 Likes

eyyy lmao.
I still think the Divine Migh change is the correct way though, things got too out of hand very easily with the original.

Chnages are happening left and right right now though, things are moving way we did not expect them to move.

While all that is true the mentioned “flaw” does affect NPE (New player experience). Some newer players may feel that their class is underwhelming and underperforming when they see swordies dominating early and mid game and may lose interest in the game itself.

1 Like

Yeah, divine was a deserved change.

I’m looking forward to seeing what IMC has in store for us on this Thursday’s maintenance though, since it’s 5 hours downtime again we might see some interesting changes like last time, i always get excited.

this is very true, their class path will limit what they can / cannot do with their playstyle and can impact the morale of the future - especially considering some skill sets are great for independant players, however some other sets simply place a tombstone over an independent class when party play is relevant.

If someone quits as a BASE CLASS (reminder, the OP want us to compare base classes) then I don’t think they’re the target audience to begin with.

1 Like

nicely put…

it isn’t a secret that wiz sp sucks and that you are better using energy bolt than your basic attacks :\

I’m confused. This is a cleric with one unused stat? For Int cleric, the number is 15, yet 22 - 15 = 7. There is no base stat of 7, so how are you getting this number? Assuming it was Str, that would be 22 - 5 = 17. For Str cleric, I’d assume the unused stat was Int, but 22 - 4 = 18, still not the number you came to, 16?

Either way this is silly. A Str or Int cleric makes use of all their stat points. You still dodge with dex, you still deal melee damage with str, and for a “Str” cleric, your heals still gain damage/healing with Int. The stat isn’t useless.

Int is useless on a swordie or archer, that comparison makes some sense ( yes finestra attribute, but until they make something that synergizes with that, it’s not useful ).

You say cleric have no reason to get SPR to fight due to not needing SP, but SPR also raises your resistance to status effects. Pretty useful when your entire team is getting spam frozen with enemy ice pike, and the cleric can resist it and cure them.

i’ll give a quick example based on my personal experience:

My 1st character was Int/Spr Cleric C2 > Priest C2 (a logical path for new player trying a healer way), but players only needed supports for dungeons so leveling became a huge pain in the arse by level 100 because none of my skills could hit flying enemies and even abusing sacrament/cafrisun and blessing wasnt enough (i wasnt lucky to get arde from dungeon, nor did i have sufficient silver to buy it but it also wasnt as popular then). Cure has way too long CD for the only offensive skill you have by that time (you kinda have to use heals for yourself because monsters start to hurt).

My 2nd character was Dex/Str Archer C3 > Wugushi C1. All i can say about it is … Multishot is the only saving grace, but it starts to fall off when you cannot even kill a group of 3-4 monsters with full lvl 15 charge of it. The so called advantage as “range” is a fail concept because a good share of monsters are archers, mages or just melees that move to you way too fast. At level 70+ you’ll start to see monsters that block 80-90% of your attacks. In dungeons i felt useless as damage dealer, dungeon bosses aggro on you after 1 or 2 skills and you have run run around for the rest of the fight almost not contributing to damage because you cannot really attack on the move as all other classes can (jump attacks) and swift step (lvl 15) is just way too slow.

All this “fun” during Highlander and Berserker fad - there were plenty of them jumping around and overkilling/KSing monsters with 1 skill.

Was it my fault for choosing those paths? I was very discouraged and disappointed about the game.

lol no… almost every form of magic can be resisted and if you use auto attack only…

you might as well jump off a cliff than fight :\