Tree of Savior Forum

Gay Nightclub Gets Shot Up

Off-Topic
#21

That’s really subjective though and an interesting subject, because as I stated these chemicals, which are a part of your DNA, determine so much. An example is hermaphrodites, a physical, not completely male or female formed person from the womb. Genetics are very tricky, chromosomes start as all female, every time, before they ever become male, so there is proven transition. Usually you get a fully formed sex that has all the “right” make up to be one sex, but then you have hermaphrodites or people with chemical imbalances in the brain. That’s often why people will feel like another sex more than their physical one, brain chemistry and chemicals. If it’s possible that someone’s physical sex can be a hermaphrodite, can it not be possible for someone’s brain or chemical make up to get mixed up?

The brain is still being figured out for the most part, but chemical make up and obvious non-binary physicalities are fact.

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#22

I stand corrected, thank you.

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#23

The FBI is currently investigating the attack as an act of terrorism as the man was on a watch list apparently. However, other reports have said he went to the club to ‘punish’ them after being enraged by images of two men kissing. So last I heard it is still unclear whether it was terrorism or an attack against homosexuals.

As far as the trans issue goes, I don’t have a problem with transgender people. Now those people out there inventing new genders because ‘male’ and ‘female’ don’t make them feel special enough? Those people are just crazy.

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#24

It sounds like a hate crime fueled domestic terrorist attack. It’s terrifying that two men kissing triggered this. The man who did this needed help, it’s sad he didn’t get it and this is the result. I won’t even start my ramble on how poor mental health care and gun control are in the United States but these can be contributing factors.

I fully believe in transgender or androgynous (there are so many forms of androgyny, even cultural, the list is huge but it’s all the same thing) people feeling the way they feel, not only because genetics are just complicated, but if it makes them happy okay. Now someone feeling like they are a dog and they inform me they want me to call them Fido as their pronoun as this is their gender… Well, I’ll do it out of respect and think they are really in tuned with their spirit animal? :eyes: Yes I have actually seen people online refer to their gender as an animal. I… don’t get it but I don’t have to. Live and let live.

Edit: I have wall of texted the hell out of this thread. Sociology is a huge subject of interest for me, but I shall stop now, and just say I’ll be praying for the victims and their families. They need it.

#25

The Truth About the Gay Nightclub Massacre

#26

That is Islam hate speech at it’s finest. I agree Middle Eastern countries are backwards but Western Muslims generally have a much different thinking on the subject, even many Middle Eastern Muslims who are scared of their totalitarian governments and cannot voice their opinions without fear for their own lives.

Hate is what started this to begin with. That is all I’m going to say on the subject as I don’t argue with extremists.

#27

yep… just more hate speech. pro-islam, anti-islam, hell idc if it’s hate speech against rwandan terrorists. we need to stop judging everything as a group, and judge people as individuals based on their chosen actions.

(“info wars”? yea, sure, but which side of the war are you on, guy?)

additionally, there’s the old adage, “those who live in glass houses should not throw stones”.
everyone is so busy focusing on everyone else’s problems that nobody is sorting out their own.

mass shooting after mass shooting, and people still pretend that guns are not part of the problem. to quote from somebody’s twitter, “canada has had 8 mass shootings in 20 years. USA has had 7 since monday.”

obviously guns are not the entire problem, but just as obviously, they are certainly contributing to it.

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#28

Well the USA needs to control its black market before we consider banning guns. Guns are a problem but the black market here is out of control to be honest. Even going through the deep web you can purchase weapons and anyone who plans to commit a violent crime is going to do it ASAP so he or she may not even be caught in time before it actually happens since everything requires an investigation to prevent false accusations.

There’s also ways to make dangerous destructive things right at home with common ingredients.

We can ban ban ban everything but it won’t change the fundamental issue that is our society. We have so many people who are incredibly stupid and attention whorish or people who were bullied so much that they lashed out violently or… people with undiagnosed mental disorders who should have sought help.

But worse than that are all of the closed minded people who believe so strongly in their own bullshit that they can’t see outside their bubble and, still, follow the ‘cultural’ norm to lash out at others who don’t share the same belief system as them like some sort of “Hero”.

I just don’t think we can “poof” ban guns and suddenly mass violence is going to disappear. Not with an out of control black market, a f*cking society full of mental people, and other ways to create weapons to carry out their psychotic plans.

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#29

I won’t make a big text about hate speech, guns and the like, I’m really tired today.

A really outrageous thing to happen. I feel sad about it, and can only offer my condolences to those who have lost someone in it, and my feelings of support to those who have survived and probably will carry scars and traumas about it (as I don’t live in USA, it was not something that received much information in the news, the topic informed me about it).

#30

The problem we face right now is phasing guns out of the hands of the public, much like Australia did. Also just to dispute something that often comes up, as usually (not saying you said this Flan, obviously you didn’t) that the black market is mostly spun because we border second and third world countries, but they actually 9/10 obtain the guns from us. http://nypost.com/2013/12/01/book-excerpt-how-america-gave-guns-to-mexican-drug-cartels/ Not only does American gun policies hurt our government, it effects other neighboring countries as well.

http://www.newsweek.com/gun-control-what-we-can-learn-other-advanced-countries-379105 This article pretty much sums up my beliefs in its entirety as to why gun control is necessary and how in theory it could work. If we look to how other countries have done it, there may be some initial back lash of the bad guys having the guns versus the good guys, yes. That would fade out over time, as it has in other countries.

Black markets exist everywhere, I’ve been on the deep web myself… It doesn’t matter what country you are in, but there are statistics on it and proven ways of dwindling it.

I agree mental health care needs to be taken care of in a large way as the system in the U.S. is terribly flawed. Ask anyone seeking mental health care, either they go to free places and barely get the assistance they need, or end up paying hundreds of dollars a session. My community doesn’t even have enough resources to help someone who is not intending to commit suicide, scary as hell fact.

#31

Not just that. Fear of prosecution for having certain kinds of mental disorders. Who the hell is going to go to a psychologist and talk about how they want to kill others? Person would be locked in a mental ward. Therefore people keep it to themselves and never seek out help.

This country currently can’t be compared to other countries for the sake of statistics. We have to solve a lot of issues about our culture and society before we can peacefully phase out guns. I know A LOT of people who said if they try to collect their guns they’re going down guns blazing.

It seems like a simple solution because you look at statistical data from other countries. But to compare their culture to our own is the flaw in the logic. We have a lot of issues we need to solve here and I feel “let’s ban guns” is avoiding the main issues of mental health, school bullying, intolerance to people who are different (Which is considered hate speech and is punishable in many European countries btw), this obsession with “traditionalism” which further closes people’s minds and lastly the need for attention whoring (sorta why I made that anti-like thread a few days ago) because attention whoring can get out of control and lead to bad things.

Go ahead and advocate for gun bans I really don’t care about guns being banned it’s no concern of mine. I’ve never owned a gun anyways. But I really want people to see a bigger picture and notice the real societal problems that need to be solved if we are ever going to become a mostly peaceful society (Obviously you can’t end all hate).

#32

It can certainly be compared to other countries statistically so we’ll have to disagree. I believe we are like other Western societies, for the most part. I’ve even got relatives who said they will go down guns blazing before they give up their guns, lol. I know most of them wouldn’t, though I don’t doubt there are some crazy mother fuckers who would.

I do agree however we have a lot of other issues, but so do these other countries. Everything you mentioned is by far not American specific though we do have it our own unique way, just as they do. There is really a commonality here as our likes, beliefs, and interests are not so vastly different we wouldn’t have similar reactions. Gun control is one issue that at one time, we shared. Now we don’t. Sometimes it’s best to look to history and let it repeat; not always a bad thing.

Does gun control concern me? Not unless someone is pointing a gun at me. My other beliefs are pretty much summed up in the article so I’ll let it rest. It was an interesting conversation at the very least. :stuck_out_tongue:

#33

Regardless of other countries I still want to look at social issues. But I digress. Other countries have social issues too so that means it’s not the problem after all.

Let’s take white out to the bill of rights and start one section at a time and eventually we will know peace.

#34

Welp that devolved, as I said I do agree with you on certain points. There are issues, and yes they need to be looked at, but someone being legally able to own a gun that has enough capacity to kill and injure 103 people is just ridiculous, I’m sorry. I’m not even saying you are saying that specifically, but it’s obviously an issue.

Weren’t you just the one saying that people should be able to have differing points of view?

#35

I understand that guns are capable of easy mass murder.

But without solving societal issues, people are going to find ways to hurt others anyways. I’m worried about freedoms being taken away every single time there’s an ‘evolved’ societal problem. When does it end?

I always see things from a future perspective, rather than a “here and now” perspective. I’m worried about eventually living in a world where I feel like a prisoner for merely existing.

It could just be paranoia but I never see any shouting about the problems we could be dealing within society, just outlawing things.

If we outlaw guns, okay. We will temporarily solve “easy” access to mass murdering. What will come next? I’m worried about what will happen next. How will psychopaths evolve and adapt to the ban?

How will our law enforcement and government evolve to combat new ways psychopaths are evolving to commit murder?

No one here can see the potential slippery slope… I have 2 close friends, one lives in UK the other lives in Poland and they tell me that “self-defense” automatically makes you guilty in many cases. If someone attacks you, you get in trouble for defending yourself.

Are we going to devolve into that? How about if we devolve into needing to watch everything we say on the internet for fear of being accused of “hate” speech? People can say some rude things but does it mean our speech should be controlled too?

I may be too optimistic. Dealing with societal issues isn’t an overnight solution and would require generations of teaching the youth tolerance, love, respect etc… it isn’t even that it’s other things such as poverty that inspires criminal behavior.

I fear slippery slope and I fear losing all of my rights to talk, defend myself (not referring to guns), and god knows what else? I fear true oppression.

I hope you can understand why I don’t look at gun statistics in an optimistic way even if it could help quell some of the current mass violence.

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#36

Okay this response I really like, genuinely, and to be honest I have a lot of the same fears. You have no idea how bad the book 1984 screwed with me when I read it the first time, lol. Because I see small little nuisances happening already. I don’t want to come off as a conspiracist, but it feels very real if you pay attention.

You’re right. Things are being taken away. Hell, if I go to New York I can’t smoke a cigarette outside on the street in certain places without getting a fine. That’s not right, let me have my damn cigarette, I’m not hurting anyone. Same thing goes for marijuana being illegal, we have more people than any other country in the whole damn world in prison, and a great percentage of that is related to weed. Of all things.

There are some things though, that are illegal for a reason, because it helps society as a whole. Take crack cocaine for instance, how many more people would do this if it were legal? I’m not talking about a case of the munchies and sleepy time here, I’m talking about a drug that makes you look like a mental ward patient, and you become a danger to everyone. It would escalate because now it’s okay. I’m not by any means saying people are going to go out and shoot people, because, that’s still illegal, of course. Yet giving people automatic weapons that have the capability to kill hundreds at a time enables it, especially when they are done caring about their selves and have a plethora of untreated mental illnesses. That’s the case with most mass shooting. I hate to say this, but we as humans are naturally violent. Violence will never poof, but you can take things away that make it worse, such as crack and guns. These two things statistically cause much more harm than good. Even people who keep them as a means of protection are more likely to be shot with their own weapon.

There are things that are taken away to help the greater good. Hell, if they just took away automatic weapons I’d be alright with that. You can kill the same amount of people with a knife as you can a hunting rifle.

Then there are things that are taken away that are proven not to harm people… Open air smoking is not going to hurt a passerby unless you are standing right in the person’s face for instance. If someone wants to hurt themselves with cigarettes, which many people argue is wrong, that’s none of their buisness. People have the right to do as they wish as long as they aren’t hurting others. Marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol. What society has to do is know when something is too much, too little, or enough. What helps the greater good or when it’s just a large amount of people who dislike something for personal harmless reasons so they think someone should conform. Many religions and the LGBT, for example. Straight camps anyone?

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#37

Well we don’t need automatic weapons to be honest. There’s a lot of guns being sold and legal to own that serve no purpose. The “Self-defense” argument doesn’t hold up well to me because unless the country is being invaded by an enemy army, you aren’t going to need a gun capable of killing tons of people.

Even if they did ban all forms of guns I’d still like things like stun guns and mace to be allowed as a form of self-defense. The moment things become anti-self defense is when I am officially going to flip my sh*t. The thought of me going to prison because some guy attacked me with a knife and I defended myself straight up terrifies me.

We can’t solve societies’ issues in a reasonable amount of time so perhaps implementing bans on some things to help calm down the mass violence can be beneficial as long as a line is drawn. But I hope people will start talking about the bigger picture, which is, what is wrong with the way society is structured and setup that is contributing to mental illness?

The nature vs. nurture argument. Are people born criminals, or do they evolve to become one throughout their experiences in life? I think some people are born mental but a lot of people evolve through experiences.

The marijuana thing is stupid. It’s ironic how quickly this country incarcerates people over ridiculous things. We even incarcerate people for “thought crimes” now. You don’t even need to be guilty of committing a crime and off you go to prison.

This obsession with just “throwing” people in prison is to blame for our neglect of our societal problems. Why care about helping people become good citizens? Why care about helping people with personal issues so they don’t devolve into mental cases? You can just throw them in prison for a thought crime or, if you don’t catch them before the crime is committed, throw them in prison anyways! Hell, let’s execute them while we’re at it!

Don’t get me wrong. If someone commits a crime they need to be punished but some day people will look at what’s wrong with society that is creating so many problems in people and, only then, are we going to move in the right direction.

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#38

Oh you and me both on the self defense stance. When I was a teenager, I was a party girl, but not an idiot. I broke the law carrying a switch blade many times, because I had no access to mace and a stun gun of course because I was under age. Carrying a knife that didn’t close in my pocket is just plain dangerous for myself. I’d rather have been hauled off to juvenile detention than be caught defenseless if I ended up walking home alone at 3 A.M. I’m 5’1 and a 120 lbs, I have nothing physically on most grown men. And to note as a teenager, I was determined I was going to have my fun so out I went armed the best way possible.

As for mental illnesses, there are definitely those born that way. As neurology has evolved, they have discovered there are certain parts of the brain that if they do not develop, or are injured, you can lose emotion. Many sociopaths are believed to have this condition. Ted Bundy was believed to be one person with it.

It for sure comes from nurture more often than not, however. I’ve struggled with many of my own issues that in some cases had things been different in my environment at periods of time in my life it would never have occurred. One point you made earlier too is fear of being locked away. There was a point in my life many years ago I was scared to get help because I’m a mother, what if they take my kids away?

I do have some hope for society as I see things slowly improve. Look how far women’s, race, and LGBT rights have come since the 1950s. Since forever before the 1950s. We are progressing but we have to keep our voices out there, and continue to say what we think will help. Individual happiness and freedom is really a thing now, where as in general due to lack of communication or a way to really gauge people’s needs small scale was almost impossible. It’s no longer just a collective “well we think this is okay based on the vocal majority”. Gay rights and understanding really spread like wild fire after the Matthew Shepard incident, it was one of the first hate crimes that brought attention to the matter in the age of technology.

As for prison… The whole system, is just ■■■■■■ up. It’s suppose to be based on “fixing” people according to those who advocate how it is now. The most they do is maybe throw a GED at some folks and teach them how to do menial jobs, giving them health care which includes crappy mental health care on the same scale as people who can’t afford it receive. This almost revolves in a circle because the two biggest reasons for crime is mental problems and lack of education. A GED that takes six weeks and common knowledge doesn’t help ■■■■.

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#39

I just saw this thread right before going to bed and didn’t have much time to read it as I am on the verge of passing out. If it wasn’t already mentioned.

  1. The test of HIV isn’t even that hard to perform and they triple check it. Once that’ll catch even the slight possibility of the virus, twice to double check the first test, and a third time to test very specifically for the virus. And it usually comes out accurately and pretty easily. My Immunology course had us do mock HIV testing on Mice and it worked out for most of us.

  2. On a lighter note, there was a nice bit of support at E3 from Bethesda for the shooting. They re-did their symbol with rainbow colors and wore lgbt ribbons during their conference. Kind of nice :slight_smile: Especially from the company of Quake and Fallout. And on such a recent event.

Sorry that I couldn’t provide something more insightful. I just wanted to put something out there.

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#40

I agree with the statement that guns aren’t the problem. The problem is the people using them. For every 1 person who uses a gun to kill people there are 1,000 who have never committed or even considered committing a crime. Take their guns away and you know what they’ll do? Find another way to kill people. There are entire books which are totally legal to purchase, own, and read thanks to freedom of speech which intimately detail how to construct and operate deadly weapons and chemicals using common household items.

The amount of gun violence in the US is ridiculously overstated. Around 65% of the gun-related deaths reported in the US are suicides. Meaning no crime was committed, and even without guns the people still would have died. 15% of gun-related deaths are attributed to criminals killed by police during violent confrontations, and 5% are accidents.

So only about 15% of all gun-related deaths in the US are actually the result of criminal actions. Of that 15%, nearly 25% of those deaths happen in the 4 US cities with the most strict gun laws. There are 19,354 cities in the US, yet those 4 with the super strict gun laws make up 25% of the fatal shootings in the entire country. California alone, the state with the most strict gun laws in the entire US, was responsible for over 1,000 of the criminal-caused gun-related deaths last year.