Yeah, thanks. Perhaps I simplify it too much. Like the concept of HPS (heals per second) as long as it reduces overall DPS (damage per second) it is considered as “damage mitigation” since it “reduces the severity of damage taken overall” after negating part of the damage.
Krivis’s Aukuras is an example of a HPS skill.
Yep I do play Guildwars 1 previously.
You’re confusing it. They shouldn’t be combined.
Heals per second is not considered damage mitigation.
Mitigation in that case would be a shielding effect to reduce the amount of DoT taken. In the case of GW1, they had no mitigation against DoTs (besides a hard-cap of 10 ticks)
All of GW1’s mitigations are against non-DoT/degeneration hits. Either from fixed (-X per incoming attack) or percentage (-50% of all damage taken) effects.
Heals per second working against degeneration (in the case of GW1) is negation, not mitigation.
+1HP -1HP = 0 net HP is Negation
Reducing of -1 to -0.5 BEFORE it damages your HP is mitigation
All mitigation effects do not touch your HP bar.
How about using “peril point” ?
With “peril to life” meaning being in danger to die, peril already has the qualification to fill the blank, and peril point/points is basically a fitting term, considering we’re talking about many points here (health points, recovery points, point of no return/demise[i.e. when a player cannot be saved, no matter the means], effective HP [i.e. HP after calculating in reduction via armor/buffs/abilities/etc.],etc.).
E.g to quote you:
“He increased/improved his peril point by 5 HP”
“He evaded his peril point by HoT”
Right, this is getting messy.
Let me just put it this way. Using the trinity of HP - Mitigation - Restoration
The reason why you split mitigation is this.
No matter how much restoration you have, unless it stacks into an overheal, pure restoration is worthless. (See current world bosses).
You first MITIGATE the damage, then ABSORB (HP) it, then RESTORE (HEAL) it.
You cannot directly offset RESTORE against MITIGATE because even if you could outheal the damage, as long as you don’t have the ABSORB (HP), you’re going to die. (Again, see world bosses).
No one cares if your healer or your potion can shove enough red bits up yours to give you a heal of 10 million, if your HP is only 10k and you die from a single hit of 10k.
One place where this trinity is considered seriously is Path of Exile, where healing (from lifeleech) dosen’t matter if you get OHKOed.
E-HP (effective HP) in that situation only calculates your total mitigation against your max HP (for example, having a 50% mitigation would turn your 10k hp into 20k, as it would take a 20k hit to kill you).
Once you calculated your E-HP, then you consider how much restoration you can obtain before you get chunked by the next hit.
In the case of Aukuras - If you had 500/second tick, and the next hit is incoming in 2 seconds, you have an effective heal of 1k
That would mean that your survivability is 2 hits, max
(1)A hit of 19.99k, reduced by 50%, hitting you for 9,999 on your 10k HP, leaving you with 1HP.
(2) Aukuras healing you for 1k, giving you 1,001 HP, and you dying on the next hit.
You always eat the damage first, before healing it. You mitigate the damage BEFORE you even eat it.
TLDR: IF YOU GET OHKO’ed, 1000 MILLION HP REGEN IS NOT GOING TO PREVENT OHKO.
Thanks for the clarification. I get it now.
Think we are diving too much into the technical specifications of the term “mitigation”.
If this game has no heal people would rather play Path of Exile since that is already designed around drinking pots
Right, so anyway… back to the main topic of reducing the 3rd portion of the trinity
Assuming that you do NOT get OHKO’ed (One Hit KO’ed)
If you reduce the healing available (regardless of where it comes from, clerics or otherwise, such as increasing HP potion cooldown timer)
You either cause (A) people having to take pauses between fights or (B) people dying (in the case of Challenge Mode), because incoming damage outweighs healing
You can also cause both (A) and (B) even without reducing healing, just by reducing the amount of mitigation available (increasing the amount of damage taken)
HOWEVER. Per your point > World Bosses > Manually dodge moves.
Unless you turn off all the graphics, its hard to do that. I’m running on a top-end rig here, and the animations of the WB is actually getting blocked by all the skill-spam. I’d have to turn everything off, and I don’t want to do that. MY FANCY ANIMATIONS.
Besides, even if you turn everything to RUNESCAPE 1.0 Year 2001 mode, the fancy AoEs from the boss gets turned off as well, lol.
(AKA Can’t see shit, not that I don’t want to dodge)
If you want an action game where you dodge moves, though, feel free to try out FFXIV.
Have a look! Fancy dodgings! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIlsQ3vVDts
All the archer, swordie, wiz will be dead in ET, WB, bellcooper and then leave the game.
I just hope they buy some of my potions before leaving. lol
Id die very quickly because active evasion with bazooka is impossible, and you cant block since you dont have a shield.
with the upcoming defence boost, it’s very easy to reduce incoming damage with the right set (e.g. Cloth set for Mirtis or Plate set for Zaura), which mitigates a part of the damage (4 armor parts of the same category reduce afairc 20% damage in total) and reduces the rest by providing a lot of specific defence if the upgrade&transcendence is high enough.
Additionally, one can utilize a lot of tools to improve survival,
e.g. Forecast scrolls [shows AoE of strong skills and grants +100 evasion to the whole party for 5 minutes], Aukuras scrolls [decreases accuracy of enemies if placed near them],
Barrier scrolls [great mdef boost if you’re immovable like in Bazooka stance; btw, Bazooka animation delay got recently reduced by 50% on kTest, so Cannoneers have less problems actively evading stronger nuke attacks],
Nuaele/Zaura cards [and eventually legendary versions of them],
Aspersion&Increased Magic Defense buffs from Pardoner,
Restoration scroll+Pardoner buff foods,
etc…
Yes, but that’s another issue related to the way this game is made.
Because remember, when it was actually difficult people cried they couldn’t solo everything and IMC stupidly agreed to their complaints… “Ewwww, we actually need to party and have a healer with us ! I want to be full DEX and be able to solo magical undodgeable group of mobs !”
@Nekorin
Honestly, I think IMC doesn’t fully know what they’re doing. I think the current devs lack the experience or/and the imagination.
There are other games that made it the opposite of a lot of games: the higher your level is, the less HP/defense you have.
As a newbie, you have extra of these, so fights are a bit easier for you while you’re learning how to play your character. The more you level, the lower your base survivability is and the stronger the enemies hit you. So you have to be smarter, to know your skills better, to learn when to block, to be careful, to use your own buffs, food to increase your base stats, etc…
This and your HK example are why I’m saying that IMC feel unexperienced. They’re in a pure “damages” point of view. The higher the boss or mobs level is, the more tanky they should be and the more damages they should deal. And it works the same way for the players. They keep adding new ways to improve your attack and defenses, they don’t think about adding new mechanics or ways to fight instead.
It’s not like you truly need Heals to start with in TOS.
Removing heals would remove the identity of the Cleric class, and it won’t bring much anyway since you still have those ways to increase your damages and defenses to insane amounts.
I think it’s actually the opposite: it’ll be even more of a DPS check game (kill before you get killed), making it even less interesting.
Anyway, I don’t think heals matter in this game. What matters the most on TOS is #1 damages, #2 damages mitigations (Ausrine, for example), #3 Healing. You heal when you’re “desperate”, if not, you use it to deal damages.
In a party in CM, my Sadhu may be a glass cannon, but she barely ever uses Heal. Why care when you can kill everything fast enough ? One little CC, good DPS, and you don’t even need any heal 
The only thing I hate about Heal is that it’s best healing skill of the game and… it comes with your base class ? Cleric is the newbie class of the tree, they shouldn’t have this amazing healing skill right away. It should come later.
@Asriel
While the Cleric is also a holy warrior (like every holy classes), what makes them different from the other classes is the fact they can effectively support and heal their parties.
All kinds of classes can buff and have a few heals - even archers sometimes have some - but the “main healing job” goes to the Cleric tree. If there is none it indeed goes to some other magical class, but that’s different.
Note that I’m using “tree”. I’m talking about TOS’ case and the fact Cleric here is the starting class of the healing/supportive classes line. The fact other games have 5 different holy/magical classes and can give the healing abilities to a “Priest” rather than a “Cleric” is irrelevant.
games powercreep, moving away from this sort of gameplay is just a natural progression of these kind of games, people want to feel fast and do things quickly, the devs responded to the people.
otherwise this game would have died long ago if they stuck to making it too slow.
biggest example of this is path of exile, back in its early days its exactly what you would describe as a “hard game” which required lots of meticulous thinking and planning on difficult encounters, now its evolved into a speed clear fast kill fast loot killing spree, which is far more appealing to the general populace than what your saying here, the same thing is destined for ToS imo.
^ This here is where you get the point of “Healing” in ToS, you get buffed from Lv 1 and go all the way to Lv 230 without expending a single HP pot in a grind mode without dungeons.
And it’s more evident if you are already a veteran and have good gear to pass to this Alt char, you can reach Lv 300+ without expend a single pot.
This by no means is something I would call fun and challenging tbh.
Now as for buffs from shops, I think it should scale with the char Lv in some way. What I thought about it was:
Of course, the numbers above might need rework, it was just an example and someone might come with a better solution to that.
That is the thing many miss when we talk about a class, we aren’t only looking to a single class, but the tree as a whole thing, while Cleric and Priest are the main healing classes, we can’t forget the others after, or at least a few of them, where they will boost the healing ability of the first 2.
One thing I would find interesting is:
On Priest, Mass heal instead of instant heal the allies, work as a HoT, and, while under it’s effect, the chars can’t use the heal tiles, or course we would need to rework on the healing power on Mass Heal to make that viable.
On Plague Doctor, Healing Factor could either:
– Changed to HP recover speed and the value readjusted to not become OP.
– And add an attribute that when taken/turned on it would apply to all party members but it’s effect be halved.
On Diev:
– Statue of Goddess Zemyna instead of decreasing SP cost, could be SP recovery, again, readjusted and the SP Rec Speed increased by .2 secs per Lv starting from 3 seconds (would go up to 6 secs max at Lv. 15).
– Carve World is my opinion but, would be nice to have 2 effects separated based on situation:
–> If in PvE: It would cause confusion stats (or other debuff effect we could apply there) for 3 secs every 10 secs.
–> If in PvP: The actual stats, then again, I’m not sure how it really works actually, if it does apply the whole duration during a PvP event, I think it should be lowered by 90% (I’m assuming the original effect duration is the same as the statue, 42 secs at Lv 10) and a effect CD of 10 secs or lower after the debuff fades.
I could go on on the changes to the tree but it’s too much of a hassle and I know IMC couldn’t care less about our opinions too.
Indeed, I was one of them, but not to the point where it is now.
But unfortunately for some of us, me included, who don’t want anything to do with guilds, and even people in some small guilds, would have a hard time doing anything in the way it was presented first, and even in the example I gave, why? Because we barely have any players to party with in the fields.
People now mostly login to do mainly Saalus and Raid when there are people willing to do, dungeons are only used to get that last spur of EXP to reach the Lv cap now and don’t provide any real good reward for doing it aside from minimal EXP after certain Lv.
Actually, ToS is a game that is the least rewarding in the working hard aspect, aside from Saalus for the necessary shards and Raid for the recipes.
Fields don’t give much things to incentive, of course aside from Challenges, but then again, you can only do it once a day or two.
In all honesty, I stopped caring about content now simply because IMC still trying to reach the proposed Lv cap (500) and I know content wise, this game will receive very little attention, I know that we will get more classes and probably items, but if you look at the game in a whole, that is only a small part of the content.
It’s interesting too, it could also be applied into Challenge Mode, but instead of EXP, it could change the drop rate or drop quality (the second probably better since we can increase the rate a bit with Loot Chance).
Also, with this, healer would be more necessary to at least progress a bit faster than going without one, that is, if it’s possible to go without one, since it looks like the mob would rip a group without heals in seconds lol.
why not just give all other trees some form of healing too. since clerics can deal damage like everyone else anyway. i don’t really see why not.
What is archer?
do we play the same game?
You’re not telling me that Cleric support>Wizard support,right?
Archer&Swordsman don’t have any magic so of course they don’t have support…
Archer can CC/debuff while Swordsman can take aggro and debuff, every tree has debuff skills (which are mainly a way to increase damage induced or reduce incoming damage).
There are only 2 skills in the Archer tree that can be called support (Overestimate and Swift Step), the rest of the skills are debuff-based [e.g. Aiming, Circling, Growling, Devaluation], so I wouldn’t put them in the support category [as there is no direct beneficial effect for the whole party].
And because most Classes in TOS don’t really utilize a subweapon (except Archers) the value of Overestimate is pretty low [it even has a downtime], not to talk about Swift Step that only boosts the parties evasion (since most Archers are only Archer C2, you’ll get 100-120 evasion boost, which is ± the same amount you can get with a Forecast scroll) as the critrate bonus and the movement boost while attacking are for Archers only…
Now about why Cleric support is so bad:
Another point I’d like to make:
most Cleric buffs are counter-intuitive.
E.g., what benefit does Sacrament have for people that don’t autoattack? 10 skillpoints wasted just to give autoattackers another attack line.
Revive: If you’re in danger to die, chances are high that you will come into the danger to die again, and since Revive has such a huge CD time, the subject will really die;
However, if the subject doesn’t die, the buff is completely useless.
Ressurection makes it easier to die again, because people ressurected have only a part of their HP and lost all defensive buffs.
Ein Sof is basically an advancement of max HP, you still have to heal up to that point or the skill does nothing [except a cheap way to boost %-based recovery skills; the attributes help recover more HP or SP].
These are some examples of how Cleric support is worse than Wizard, excluding Swordsman and Archer.