Tree of Savior Forum

Fixing Paladin Discussion

Class and Rank Cleric
#1

I wanna know everyone’s ideas when it comes to what can be done with Paladin to actually make it less of a one-trick-pony class that technically can be done by everyone under the right pretenses.
Also here's a Cleric Jig.

I just wanna talk about what I would do to Paladin to try and make it more relevant and more wholesome as a class instead of just being the Condom boy when technically you can just buy condoms at the store.

  • Smite: Add some sort of base stat scaling

Paladin itself is in a weird spot in that it doesn’t benefit being either STR or INT based due to it’s base damage being okay but nothing scaling on anything. Giving Smite some actual scaling bonuses would salvage this problem. I was thinking (Smite + 1.5 x STR + 0.8 x INT) or something of the like. I do believe that Intelligence should have a lighter scaling but it should be also involved and flexible enough to actually be valuable for INT-builds. The overall DPS output would be great considering its’ Devil/Mutant superiority. The possibility could vary, but even SPR scaling on Paladin wouldn’t be bad considering it’s solid supportive qualities.

  • Resist Elements: Not much aside hotfixes?

Surprisingly there’s not much to say about Resist Elements. Alot of monsters in this game use some type of Property Attack, and Paladin protects against this… 19% of the time (Level 15 + 4% maxed Attribute). They’ve buffed the skill to decrease the Property attack of others, actually giving the skill a feel of mitigation. I really wish that 19% was atleast a 25%, but it may become really strong in PvE among other neutral damage decrease skills. It’s a solid skill for PvE.

  • Restoration: New Attributes?

Restoration’s power isn’t from the skill itself, but rather the hidden interaction it has to increase healing proficiently by roughly ~40%. That’s fine, as the skill plays on others better than most of the skills in Paladin do, lol. I guess I’d like an attribute that simply reduced the heal interval timer that Restoration has, since it’s flat and cannot be changed even with Aukuras or Statue Zemyna.

  • Turn Undead: Hotfixes

There’s not much wrong with the skill honestly. The cooldown is long and the skill itself sounds lackluster, but when facing undead or demons at higher levels, Turn Undead has the ability to single handedly delete things. Granted it’s RNG, but it is a handy skill to test your luck. All I’d really do to the skill would be to increase the value that SPR gives to the chance of auto kill.

  • Conversion: Full Scale Revamp

It’s a useless skill, but not only is it useless, but it full out bugs the game. If you try and take a mob in a dungeon you need to kill all the mobs, you can’t proceed. That’s faulty coding and it may just be better off changing the skill entirely to something people would find desirable.

My idea for the revamp would be to cast a field similar to that of Zalciai. Stepping into the field would pseudo make you into a Devil Type, much like how Druids can make enemies into plant type with Chortasmata. What this would allow is the effects of Smite (maybe Turn Undead, may be broken in PvP) to apply to any type of while Conversion affects them, which would change the conditional nature of Paladin on it’s head. It’d be a neat ability and a play on what Paladin stands for, a furious mixed strength guardian who stands for the Goddesses with conviction. All those who stand in the way of the Goddesses are enemies.

  • Conviction: :+1:

I don’t have much to say on behalf of Conviction. Makes Smite hit 3 times in succession, and also decreases all property Resistance on a target on a high uptime that isn’t 100%. Any Magic type would appreciate this. It doesn’t really need damage scaling because it’s more of a buff/debuffer skill than an actual DPS skill, and it has high base damage as it is.

  • Barrier: Trade this skill for Resist Elements as Scrollable for Pardoners

Who’s bright idea was it to make Barrier scrollable? It’s the only C3 skill that can be scrolled…so why? Barrier’s a great skill, but it kills anyone’s want to be a wall when anyone can become a wall. Sure you could be a healer as well but, another healer with different quirks could buy it and get one of the most niche but useful ablities to come. It’d be like making Frost Cloud usable for any Wizard: It wouldn’t be right for the actual useful Elementalists when a Cryo/Rune Caster.

That and, Resist Elements is a more solid skill to not damage the usefulness of a Paladin’s niche. They’ve gotten to C3 and gotten their powerspike and strong skills to carry with them…but why are they technically usable by anyone else as well?

What do you guys think? What would you do, if you could?

8 Likes
Class balance for a dead game. Can we talk about it? Can we? Do you still play Tree of Savior?
#2

Scaling skills with a little bit more of % int and % con would solve 9/10 problems. But, just a little bit. Paladin kit is ok imo, it just needs a boost. And remove barrier scrools for the god sake, it’s a stupid mechanic that doesn’t make any sense at all

#3

Most of you say is good to make it better, here some of my opinion :slight_smile:

  • Smite: I think it should be only STR, because it’s still a phys attk. People that go for INT builds already have good options.

  • Restoration: The most problem is that HP Recovery in this game is broken and doesn’t work. If they fix this than Restoration is going to be good.

  • Conversion: Just delete this skill and put a self heal with a cool name, like Lay on Hands. :sunglasses:

I still think Paladin is in the wrong tree, so if I could I’ll just put Paladin in the Swordsman Tree, as well as Monk :+1:

#4

I’d say Smite should get a bonus from SPR rather than INT, you know to go with the thing Cleric has with pushing SPR for support purposes as can be seen in the likes of Priest which even gets an upgrade via Chaplain that effectively makes their INT and SPR into another hit of damage.

Similarly Restoration and Resist Elements should get a bonus out of SPR too, the later case even if it is to the raw damase decrease it would be better than the nothing it gets from it right now.
Restoration honestly should get a ‘‘Reduce HP Recovery Time’’ attribute for sure, even if it asks for C2 that’d be fiiine.

Hope that Pardoner rework gets around before the end of the year, if at all, geez.

#5

@Maflores Yeah, which is why I mainly tackled the issues that make Paladin unsure of what direction it wants to go.

@Viniliano Fair enough, Clerics do have alot of INT based options. Though I do find that Aukuras works fine in decreasing the BASE HP recovery, but anything else seems buggy that you’d think would be added in. As for Conversion, lol. It wouldn’t be bad if it wasn’t badly coded.

@Jariu Now that you reminded me, SPR would be a good scaling instead on a good chunk of skills. SPR Paladins would be nice to see, especially since Smite is a mana-guzzler attack skill and I know SPR Paladins actually do exist.

We can all hope for those Pardoner revamp though. Paladin’s kit isn’t exceptional, but it’s very solid for matters and it’s harmed because they have to share their powerspike potential with everyone.

#6

Aukuras indeed makes the skills better, but make Restoration depends on Aukuras to be valid kill the customization to make a Pally. I like the idea from @Jariu to be an attribute on C2, so you have synergy with Aukuras but the skill will be useful without or IMC could just fix HP recovery :disappointed_relieved:.

Okay I might been to extreme there, but even if wasn’t bad has already better skills to grab it, like Bokor zombies which are far better than just the mob converted. Still I don’t get it why Paladin doesn’t have a heal skill :confused:

IMO the first step for a better Pally is to make clear what stats the class should focus because right now is just… weird, or maybe is just me trying to make a different build that I’m not suppose to.

#7

Well, the focus is clearly in STR and SPR with it’s only skill using INT being ‘‘Turn Undead’’ which finds it’s main appeal being an instant kill for Mutants and Devils rather than it’s magic damage, Barrier can be atributed to use magic damage too but it seems more like an afterthought rather than as a selling point for the skill.

The problems begins when SPR doesn’t play all that much of a role in the class a few exeptions aside, which with the unremarcable damage of the class making it lackey compared to what the intention seems to be.

#8

I wanna talk about [Conversion] here.

Yeah, it’s really kinda buggy skill, but trust me… if done “correctly”, it’s really enjoyable, fun to watch and helps a lot at end-game ~mandatory-grinding~ levels. However, using this skill to help you grinding faster outside dungeons or high level maps… it’s kinda debatable. Except, maybe, when paired with an Oracle character (they can change mobs and you can convert them, it’s really useful).

When the skill works as intended, converted monsters’ AI seems to be a little buggy, but still better than Sorcerer C1 summoned units. They’ll follow you, engage whatever you’re targeting at and if you’re doing nothing, they’ll just attack anything at their range (and seems to be a nice range, though), allowing some AFK-farming. They’ll also be teleported right next to you, if you’re getting too far away. What really, REALLY sucks is their damage after conversion. (Once again, excluding dungeons, really late game maps or without an Oracle)

You notice when the skill is not working properly when:
A. The converted monster does absolutely nothing after conversion.
B. The converted monster disappears right after conversion.
C. If you’re trying to convert a new mob and your already converted mobs are attacking it as well, they will stuck forever (enemy-ally flagging issues) as soon as you convert the target.

I won’t enter on major technicalities (there’s a wide discussion about Conversion over here), but the attribute [Might Enhance] that allows converted monsters to increase/scale their damage based on caster’s STR (50% value) is buggy right now and it doesn’t work, except for it’s increased cooldown when toggled ON.

UPDATED: For the love of God—IMC get around to this
#9

Honestly I don’t really hate the idea of it. But judging on IMC’s track record, it’s going to take awhile even on the bug-filled side before the skill becomes decent. The idea of converting a minion to your side is cool, just not when it bugs out on itself or spoils a dungeon run.

1 Like
#10

Minor bump to see more opinions in the name of:

#11

Hmm, I kind of always dreamed of a Paladin rework. Instead of these"auras" that are really just lame buffs in disguise, they should make true auras that affect all allies in an area around them that provides beneficial effects, and provide negative effects on enemies that lie within them.

Also making them toggle-able on and off would make them work pretty nicely, giving the Paladin to switch between auras when necessary. A Paladin should also be able to turn on all of their auras at the same time when needed, but it would be very costly on SP in that matter. Auras could probably drain SP similarly as to how Sorcerers get their SP drained from Summons.

In line with this:

Restoration should provide an aura that restores HP by a % amount every few seconds while it’s active. Maybe even recover a portion of SP with attribute. Great for emergency healing in case heal cooldowns are down, and would probably omit the need to go Cleric C2 due to the limited circles prior to Paladin. For enemies, it could simply deal some amount of damage every second they’re within the area of effect, and maybe even slowly reduce SP too to serve as a great zoning tool for PvP.

Resist Elements should retain all its buffs and its debuff, but make it a toggle-able skill to ensure you can keep it at 100% uptime. This might warrant a nerf but if anything, all classes should at least have that one skill that makes him/her pivotal in certain team compositions or content, in the Paladin’s case it would be this.

Conversion can be scrapped and be replaced with a very simple offensive/defensive aura that increases damage to enemies and reduces damage for allies.

Turn Undead, Smite and Conviction seem good enough as is, although I would prefer if Smite could be something like a gap closer (similar to Hoplite’s Lone Stride Skill) to give Paladins more mobility. Turn Undead could be scrapped for a more defensive ability unique to Paladins as well. For Conviction, maybe grant it a grandeur AoE that gives Paladins some decent AoE capability and maximize its debuff.

Paladins should also at least get themselves a block passive similar to Peltastas/Rodeleros. Maybe make it unique in a sense that it’s a block passive that lets you block only magic attacks. It would fit the bill further for the character as Paladins do have a blue icon after all.

As for Barrier, personally I would find it nice if it could somehow follow the Paladin around similar to the rest of the auras. Barrier should also be able to block projectiles at least, instead of simply increasing magic defense for all allies within the field. There should be the option to press the skill again and plant it onto the ground you’re currently on for some flexibility. This would work amazingly in GvG and PvP for Paladins so they could serve as frontliners, and will differentiate itself quite a lot from the Barrier scrolls.

#12

I like the Paladin class in most mmos, but ToS has one of the weakest, most useless Pallys by far. Their skills hardly reflect what a Paladin does, usually a magic knight with a focus on healing and tanking. Rather, Paladins in tos are anti-magic clerics. Still worse, other cleric classes can perform anti-magic duties better than Paladin. What a travesty.

##Offenses

Smite

  • This is by no means a dps skill. It just gives Paladin a different button to push so they don’t have to press Z 100% of the time. It has a very slow animation. Guaranteed 0% chance to hit a moving target in pvp. It’s sp cost is enormous, costing more sp/sec than anything in the Wizard tree. Dievdirbys, a rank 3 class deals more damage with Carve Attack than Paladin’s (rank 4) Smite. There is no way that 100% damage +700 to 1700 with 2 overheat and criticals is going to stand a chance against 500% damage with 3 overheat. There is no contest. The only time it’s better is when used against Mutants and Devils or when the target has a Conviction debuff. The advantage against Plate Armor isn’t enough to make Smite better than Carve Attack. Right out the gate, Paladin starts off with a worse offensive attack than a rank 3 class.
  • My suggested fix is to reduce the sp cost by 25%. Speed up the animation by 25%. Increase overheat to 3. Increase cooldown to 12 sec. Remove the flavorful bonus damage to mutant and devil and replace it with this new effect. Smite inflicts the “attack weakened” status debuff for 4 seconds. For each instance of “attack weakened,” Smite inflicts 1 additional hit.
  • These changes homogenizes Paladin’s power by allowing Smite to get multiple hits against any target. Though being strong against mutants and devils fits with the class theme, turn undead already serves that purpose. The attack weakened debuff also helps Pally indirectly help with tanking. It also opens up potential combos with classes that can also inflict attack weakened.

Conviction

  • This is actually a really cool skill that’s unfortunately held back by it’s long cooldown. Even worse is that it requires very specific equipment to make the most of the debuff, which often means that only you benefit from the debuff, rarely your party. It also makes Smite hit 2 additional times, which is good, but doesn’t make any sense.
  • In order to have the 2 additional hits make sense, I’m going to make Conviction apply “attack weakened” on each hit. In addition, I will also give it a hidden effect with Deprotected Zone, like Monk’s Hand Knife. When used on an enemy affected by DZ, the aoe will magnify to the size of Zalciai/Flame ground/Frost cloud and inclift a debuff that “reduces the target’s aoe defense ratio by 1” on each hit. All of this replaces the existing “reduced elemental property resistance”. The animation will use the crater gfx from Smite, but much larger and adds a bronze tower of light emanating from the center. The first hit sfx will be the same but the second hit will be much grander, like Meteor’s hit sfx.

Turn Undead

  • This skill is very flavorful for Paladins. It’s held back by it’s long cooldown, which makes it fair. It’s useful, but not broken. I like it as it is.
  • If I were to make any changes, I would make it apply “attack weakened” to any enemies hit by this skill. This way, it’s not completely useless in maps with no mutants and undead and can buff Smite.

##Support

Resist Elements

  • This skill is all over the place. It reduces mdef, which can’t really be used by Pally since Pally is mostly physical. It’s cooldown takes too long for it to be usable as a reliable debuff outside of boss fights. Property resistance might be useful in pvp, but in pve, it’s basically a worse version of mdef. Pardoner’s Increase Magic Defense Lv5 is more reliable and is as good as Lv15 Resist Elements. Ignore property attack is the cool part of the skill, allowing you a 19% chance to ignore most magic damage. This is the main reason to take the skill, though again, most enemies in pve don’t have property attacks and will ignore this effect. This is unfortunately not the magic version of Stone Skin, if that’s what you’re hoping for.
  • This skill does not feel like a Paladin skill. I’m not sure why ToS made Paladins hate magic. What I would do is swap this skill with Cleric 3’s Guardian Saint and adjust Resist Elements so that it’s balanced at rank 3 and being capped at lv5. Now, Paladin has Guardian Saint. I’ll change Guardian Saint’s effect so that it allows the Paladin to take damage for the first ally that steps in the magic circle. So I’m reversing the effect to give Paladin a tank ability. Next I’ll change Guardian Saint so that instead of the luck based 50% chance of swapping damage taken, I’ll make it so that Paladin always takes the damage, but the tanked damage gets reduced by skill level3% and tanking up to skill level10 hits.

Restoration

  • Restoration’s effect is so minor, I would honestly take no points in this skill if it weren’t for the hidden effect of improving all your other heals and for the sp recovery attribute.
  • If I had to make a minor change, I’d make it scale off your existing hp recovery. Like +10% hp recovery per skill point. If I could make any change, I’d turn it into a primary row buff (from secondary row) and make it so that your HP recovery procs whenever you take damage. But only 10%*HP recovery per skill point invested.

Barrier

  • This skill is really good. Too bad everyone can use it.
  • I would “nerf” this skill so that you need the damage attribute to push enemies back. Without the damage attribute, it only provides the mdef buff. To compensate for the “nerf” I’ll reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds and double the mdef gained at every level. Considering Oracle unlocks counterspell at this rank, which is nearly a strictly better barrier, this buff should be of no surprise. It might be better to change the mdef buff to a “increased def against missile type attacks” to not compete against counterspell. Yeah, that sounds more fair.

##Wtf?

Conversion

  • This skill is literally Zombify but worse in every possible way. A rank 5 skill that’s worse than a rank 3 skill is beyond my comprehension. Conversion has a tiny, 1-10% chance (estimated) chance to convert an enemy, vs zombify’s 100%. Zombify has no zombie limit, and can create more zombies per point while Paladin is can only ever have skill level monsters under your control. Converted enemies attack far more slowly than zombies, and cannot be buffed.
  • I would replace this skill completely with something new. Though gaining allies is somewhat of a Paladin thing to do, the whole trope behind Paladin is that instead of forgiving the sins of your enemies, you smite them. Therefore, leave no enemy standing. I would be completely ok with moving conviction down to r2 while a new skill gets made. I’ll recommend something like Cross Guard, to assist with the off tanking or another healing skill that simultaneously deals damage.
1 Like
#13

I’ve been playing around with a few ideas on how to improve the paladin and make it more of a defensive melee support circle. My idea here was to kind of help its early game healing/support while letting it fall back into more of a secondary roll later in the levels. A heads up I am only really in circle 1 atmo (Cleric1 > Preist2 > Paladin1) so I am not sure how the later circles perform but from what I have read there is not a whole lot to look forward to.

#Restoration

  • Rework into toggle-able aura. Instead of adding HP recovery it instead reduces the delay in between HP Recovery by 1.2 seconds per level. Reduce Max level to 10. Will be temporarily overwritten by Krivis’ Aukuras regardless of skill level.

  • Attribute: SP Recovery - (Circle 1) Aura also shortens SP recovery tick by 1 second per attribute level. Max Level 5.

  • Attribute: Heal Reduction - (Circle 2) Enemies in range of the Aura have their HP Recovery and Incoming Heals reduced by 10% per attribute level. Max Level 5. Toggle-able

#Resist Element

  • Rework into a toggle-able aura. Remove enemy mdef reduction. Move nullification to attribute. Max level remains 15.

  • Attribute: Nullification - (Circle 1) Gives a 1% chance per attribute level to nullify the listed property attack. Max Level 5.

  • Attribute: Inhibit Magic - (Circle 2) Enemy spells cast within the Aura will have their damage reduced by 3% per attribute level. Max Level 5. Toggle-able

#Smite

  • Change damage type to Holy. Add scaling off of CON. Remove Overcharge. Remove double damage to Devil/Mutant. Increase base damage by 25%. Keeps +dmg attribute.

  • Attribute: Crusade - (Circle 2) Killing an enemy has a 1% chance per attribute level to reset Smites cooldown. Max Level 10.

  • Attribute: Purification - (Circle 1) Smite no longer scales but will instead heal the paladins party for 200% of the paladins HP recovery.

#Divine Protection
Turn Undead replaced by Divine Protection

  • Places an absorb shield equal to 50% of the paladins current HP on each party member. Duration 15sec Cooldown 120sec. Damage taken is reduced by 1% per skill level while the shield is active. When the shield expires the player will be healed for any remaining absorb. Max level 15. Requires an equipped shield to use.

  • Attribute: Reflection - (Circle 2) The shield will reflect 1% per attribute level of incoming damage for its duration. Max Level 10.

  • Attribute: Duration - (Circle 1) Increases the duration of the shield by 1sec per attribute level. Max Level 5.

#Conversion

  • Increase the chance to convert mobs overall. Convert chance is based on character and mob level. Fix the plethora of bugs related to the skill.

#Barrier

  • Any incoming ranged attacks are reduced by 5% per skill level upon entering the barrier.

#Conviction

  • Give Turn Undead’s chance to execute Mutant and Devil type mobs, possibly reduce the chance. Executing a Mutant or Devil resets conviction cooldown.

The goal was supposed to give early circle paladins a way to support the team and not just have to rely on their priest / cleric circles for support. I am not sure what HP recovery looks like at endgame levels so smites heal may be a tad overpowered at end game.

I don’t know a whole lot about circle 2 and circle 3 skills so Ill be updating it as I get there.

Edit: Changed some attributes and changed Divine Protect a bit.

#14

How about attributes that change [heal] and [cure] in some way so the paladin does more holy damage? It’s been done. Wiz classes have cross-class attributes.

#15

they both are religious which is the opposite of swordsman

#16

This is just a copy and paste from my old thread, with some changes

#Smite:

  • attribute added
    smite: stun chance - smite has a 25% chance to stun enemies for 5 seconds, enemies that are stunned will not be knocked back or take knockback damage - cd increased to 9 seconds

  • sp cost reduced by 25%

  • smite cooldown reduced by 2 seconds 9>7

  • animation is now faster

#Conversion:

  • converted enemies attack has been increased/decreased to 100% of your physical attack ( physical monsters) or 100% of your magial attak (magical monsters)
  • converted enemies AI are improved
  • converted enemies will now follow when you change maps
  • converted enemies follow you into 2v2 Team battle league, but not dungeons or guild battle/5v5 Team battle league
  • cooldown reduced by 5 seconds
  • new attribute added
    conversion: unconvert - type /explode to explode all converted monsters, you will gain 50% of normal exp from exploded monsters.

#Conviction:

  • cooldown reduced by 8 seconds 26>18
  • enemies hit with conviction will be slowed by 25% for 5 seconds.

#Barrier:

  • no longer scrollable
  • increased defence against missile type attacks.
  • max health increased by 50% while in barrier
  • cc resistance has been increased while in barrier ( 40% + spr increased chance to resist cc)
  • increased chance to resist status ailments and debuffs like poison and hexing ( 50% + spr increased chance to resist debuffs and staus ailmetns)

[ - the attribute barrier:magic damage has been changed
barrier: magic damage - will now deal damage equal to double your magic attack every second to enemies inside the barrier

or

-enemies inside of barrier for 3 or more seconds will be slowly pushed back out (while being pushed out enemy cant move, and is silenced, and will take damage equal to 100% of magic attack every second) it is now harder for enemies to pentetrate through barrier, and harderfor enemies to get out of barrier. ]

Turn undead:

cooldown reduced to 45 seconds
instant kill chance is increased by 10%

#Resist elements

  • cooldown reduced to 1 minute
  • increased nullify chance to 5% + 1% per skill level

#Restoration

  • reduces enemies damage and attack speed while in aura

  • every ally within the aura will restore 3% + x of their health every 2 seconds ( x = added hp recovery from restoration)

  • Restoration: increased agility - your accuracy, crit rate, crit damage, and evasion will all be increased by 5% per attribute level while restoration is active. (max attribute level - 4)

#17

I like how you all have different approaches to how you’d buff Paladin, and honestly they’d all be significant.

  • Changing Restoration to be Max HP/SP% would give it the extra oomph to be a skill to also be leveled up, but I would like it as well if you could cut the values in half to decrease said healing interval.

  • Now I’m thinking Barrier should actually act like a Barrier. It should do something to missle-type attacks, whether it be cut their damage or just mitigate it to the Cleric itself.

  • Smite needs changes, but I notice that upping it’s damage wouldn’t change much since the skill itself is stuck between a limbo of “I want to do damage” or “I want to have utility.”

I honestly wouldn’t mind if Resist Elements became broken for defensive matters. Most popular classes in the game are popular because they have a game-wise broken aspect. Diev straight overshadows Paladin though most matters, so I’d rather Paladin be a strong relevant force in diminishing damage overall, along with the theme of being an anti-mage.

#18

Just to be “different” I would like [restoration aura] to use hp recovery outside the regen rate (of 20sec). Something like “you auto attacks recover hp = to your hp regen stat”.