I want to have input regarding this topic, as my Swordman is invested in what might come of it. To keep it short I want to talk about the Highlander suggestions.
Highlander
General Overview
Right now I think that Highlander is alright.
Cartar Stroke
Problem: Scaling into higher levels.
Proposed change:
New Attribute:
Required Circle: Highlander C3
Effect: Reduces the casting time of Cartar Stroke by 15% per attribute level (75% at max attribute level).
Max attribute level: 5
Penalty: Overcharge reduced by 1
Justification
Better scaling into higher levels as well as an incentive to add more points into this skill. It also becomes better at Highlander C3 as it has too long of a casting time to become truly usable in practice, which should be solved by the proposed attribute.
Cross Guard
Problem: No real problem besides inconsistency. Why is it that every other skill on the Highlander kit has no weapon restriction, but this one does?
Justification
It allows for more variety of builds, giving Highlander another reason to become a solid choice in builds looking for more combat utility.
Sky Liner
Problem: Scaling into higher levels.
Proposed change:
New Attribute:
Required Circle: Highlander C3
Effect: Reduces Sky Liner's cooldown by 5 seconds when used on Bleeding targets.
Max Attribute Level: 1
Penalty: Removes Sky Liner's double damage on Bleeding targets.
Justification
The new attribute looks to give a choice between burst damage and sustained damage to the Highlander and compensates for the difference with the version on kTOS, without being as powerful
I agree Catar stroke could be improved but instead, I think instead of giving it a new attribute, simply make it do a number of hits equal to the level of charge, vis a vis multi shot.
I disagree with the blanket suggestion to unhinge Cross Guard from weapon restrictions. Cross guard is the number one reason to equip two handed swords, better than their attack, or the crit attribute highlanders have. I would concede that it could be usable with any two handed weapon, only so long as highlanders gain the ability to equip such weapons.
That said, I think the Highlander skill tree could be improved by adding an extra 2 hand weapon equip attribute at each circle. C2 highlander could gets 2 hand spears, C3 could getā¦ staves? Maybe make a physical attack weapon class thatās 2 handed and does blunt.
I think skyliner is fine as is. If your attribute were to be implemented, it better have a toggle, b/c I wouldnāt invest in it but if I did I sure as hell would want it turned off.
As an aside, the problem with the swordman class isnāt that they are underpowered, rather that archers and mages are overpowered into the late game. 2 simple fixes for this. For archers, change most of their attacks and skills to not seek target and to having projectile speed and collision. Some already are area based, but what I mean is that for most attacks, make the attack hit the first target in line, then continuing to the next target along the vector till the AoE ratio is met. Plus, if the target, even if locked, is moving at an angle to the archer, the attack or skill should miss or have an increased chance to miss. (Arrows generally donāt change trajectory, you know)
Mages are fine as they are, but IMC should implement better means of obtaining elemental defense and magic defense.
One last thing, with regards to CC, while I realize it is mechanically important for supports and others to use their CC, it is generally a bad mechanic to lean on from a meta perspective. Both people in pvp are there to play a game, but only one person actually gets to play if infinite CC is involved. Perhaps a mechanic could be introduced that increases your resistance to a status effect if you have recently been effected by the same.
edit: I failed to keep it short or stay on highlander topic, sorry.
Most of our mechanical issues stem from glaring flaws in melee combat and PvE encounter design, but Iād rather not achieve parity among DPS classes by making the rest of them suffer from those flaws like we do.
This is because IMC is highly unlikely to redesign their ranged, magic, or melee combat systems, so the best we can do is suggest changes which aid us in mitigating said flaws in game design, and ensure that we are adequately rewarded for more attentive and precise gameplay.
iām thinking about Pain Barier. A skill that benefits all. High level Pain Barrier more up time. And the effect halve on pvp. guess this will be fair enough. life steal to the basic, you still need to hit too. not really being too op. but do help solve all swordsman concern in end game content which too fagile to anything although with slightly āhighā hp pool
Well, after so many complaining topics and IMC keep silence about the issues, Iām starting to lose hope
But here goes nothing
The main issue while leveling with swordman lie in the fact that the down time of skills is so big but the auto attack damage is just mediocre. That couple with tiny hit box and generally not enough AoE attack ratio make leveling more of a pain.
Swordman is supposed to lure mobs right (swashbuckling and provoke attribute, you canāt say otherwise). Let take an example with cataphract, the supposedly best AoE attacker on swordman tree.
Earthwave: 15s cd, 4 AoE ratio (plus 4 from spear so itās like 8)
Doom spike: 22s cd, 3 AoE ratio (7 with spear)
Now usually when you go lure (with or without swashbuckling) you get 6-8 mobs on average. With the norm of mobs having 2 AoE def ratio, your skills hit 4 mobs at most (sometimes 5) so you cannot hit and kill all the mobs your lured, no matter how strong you are (and you are not strong at all lol)
After throwing all skills you are present with 15s down time that you can only use your auto attack, which is both slow and weak, and at melee range as well.
Hence the swordman leveling paradox:
Lure many mobs = hard to kill them all
Lure few mobs = slow clear rate because you are melee and need to run to them every time.
I hope to see swordman classes with either more skills, or less cd, or both. And more damage on top of that.
I mean where is the balance when my full DEX archer hit 2x more damage than my full STR swordman, while being 50 level lower?
I agree with these changes especially for the Shinobi part
However, I have suggestions in mind about the changes in Shinobi Class. People might disagree with this; however, please take note that this is my personal suggestions.
This took me 2 days to complete this. I just hope the Staffs will consider this lol.
Iām doing revisions on skills of Shinobi to be more little bit realistic.
#Additional items for Shinobi:
Shuriken: It costs 500 silver each.
Smoke Bomb: It costs 500 silver each.
#Additional Active Skills:
I would like to replace Mijin No Jutsu with these following skills:
Raining Shuriken (Max level 5, Pierce-Type):
You will choose a location and Locks the target within AoE Radius 3 and fires deadly Shurikens. It deals 735 damage each Shuriken. Each hit releases 2 Shurikens. Last for 3.5 seconds. (This skill can be used while moving or running). Consumes Shuriken. (Can be copied by clones)
Note: the damage scale is in Max level.
Slash and Dash Attack! (Max level 5, Overheat 2, Slash-Type, AoE radius 4, Element: Dark):
A skill combination of dashing through the enemy/enemies while slashing the enemy by spinning below this body with a deadly attack. The Shinobi will go pass through the enemy after the animation. It deals 895 damage. (Can be copied by clones)
Note: the damage scale is in Max level.
Dodge Rolling (Max level 1, Overheat 2):
A basic evasive maneuver that dodges all attack. Cooldown 30 seconds. Consumes 2 stamina. Cooldown 28 seconds. (Cannot be copied by clones)
Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 1, Slash-type):
A technique that uses long range chain and sickle weapon dealing fast and deadly damage to the enemies rapidly. All skills and the equipped weapons will be disabled and will be replace by a chain and sickle weapon. The damage scale depends on the skill level. Deals 835 damage + the number of DEX points per hit . This weapon cannot be compared to 1h-sword,2h-sword, dagger, pistol,1h-spear,2h-spear, and Rapier. Consumes 13 SP Point per Hit. Cannot be copied by clones.
Change Stance (Max level 1):
This skill can swap from using Ninjutsu to Tai Jutsu and vice-versa. When in Tai Jutsu, you will be restricted in using all skills and your weapons. You will be automatically use [Fists] as your main and sub weapon (Damage scale of Fists depending on your equipped weapons damage + 10% additional Physical Damage. You will use your body as a weapon, and unique Tai Jutsu skills. Clones will disappear once you activate this skill, and cannot be copied by Clones. Cooldown 5 seconds.
TAI JUTSU SKILLS:
Ninjas/Shinobi doesnāt only use weapons, but also Unarmed Combat they call it Tai Jutsu. Thatās the reason why I created the Change Stance skills. People might think this is OP but take note of the skills below, and see for yourself.
Take note that there is no need for you to spend skill points for the Tai-Jutsu skills. Once you get the Change stance, you will automatically get all skills and theyāre considered as level 1, and cannot be enhanced by Divine Might.
Chi Punch (Max level 1, Overheat 3, Strike-type):
A technique using Chi to enhance your fist and strikes the enemy uses both his Body and Spirit that deals 685 damage + 8% HP of the enemy. It consumes 1 stamina. Cooldown 21 seconds after all Overheat are consumed.
Heavenās Kick (Max level 1, Overheat 3, Strike-type):
A technique blessed by the heavens to deliver massive blow to the enemy. It deals 745 damage + 40% Physical damage of the Shinobi. Consumes 2 stamina. Cooldown 21 seconds after all Overheat are consumed.
Growling Tigerās Uppercut (Max level 1, Strike-Type):
A technique learned from the white tigerās ferocious roar and translated into uppercut maneuver hit the targetās body. It deals 675 damage. The enemy will be vulnerable to all incoming Strike-Type Damage within 6 seconds. Cooldown 23 seconds. Consumes 3 stamina.
Rising Dragon (Max level 1, Strike-Type)
A technique learned and blessed by the great Ryu. Uses a Highly Advanced Uppercut attack to the enemy and flies to the sky, the Shinobi will jump and captures the enemy and smash the enemy on the ground. This deals 1485 damage and knockās down the captured enemy. Deals 975 damage to enemies within AoE radius of 8 (The captured enemy will no longer deal damage with this). Cooldown 63 seconds. Consumes 7 stamina.
Dodge Rolling: this skill will remain in Tai Jutsu mode, and still the same.
#Additional Class attributes (Passives):
Bunshin No Jutsu: Weapon Mastery (Max Level 1):
Clones can now use 2H-spears, 2H-swords, and a sub-weapon Dagger.
Ninja Ken (Max Level 3):
When equipped with 1H-sword, 2H-sword, and Rapier, it provides additional physical damage of +5% per level. At maxed level, it has a chance of Bleeding (The damage of bleeding is determined by Characterās STR with a duration 2 seconds) to the enemy by 8% chance (This applies to all Slash-Type Damage dealt by the Shinobi only not even the Clones). You cannot choose Yari No Jutsu if you choose this.
Note: this is in level 1.
Yari No Jutsu (Max Level 3):
When equipped with 1H-spear and 2H spear, it provides additional physical damage of +5% per level. At maxed level, it has a chance of [Armor-Break] of 10% (2 seconds duration) to the enemy by 8% chance (This applies to all Pierce-Type Damage dealt by the Shinobi only not even the Clones) You cannot choose Ninja Ken if you choose this.
Note: this is in level 1.
Shadow Weapon Assault (Max level 1):
When equipped with a Dagger, it immediately connects to the main-hand when attacking the enemy without a delay by 15% chance (It applies only in auto-attacks. This can be activated without manually clicking the Sub-Weapon Attack). This affects the Clones as well.
Inton No Jutsu (Max level 1):
When your HP reached 20% and below, immediately you will throw a Smoke Bomb creating a [Smoke Screen] (AoE radius 6 with 2 seconds duration. Enemies within range are [Blinded] until the remainder of the effect), and be teleported randomly within 180 range. You will gain 2 seconds of stealth after that. (Can be used on both stance)
Cooldown 132 seconds, and consumes 3 Smoke Bombs.
Enchance: Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 3):
Improves critical rate by 7% per level. At level 3, inflicts [Bleeding] whenever you use Kusari Gama by a chance of 10%. Deals Splash Damage as well within AoE radius 3. At 8th attack, it captures the enemy last for 2.3 seconds and you will pull the chain in order for you to get near the enemyās location.
Note: this is in level 1.
Untouchable (Max level 1):
Whenever you use [Dodge Rolling], it leaves Caltrops (Last for 1.5 seconds duration) to slow down the enemy who is chasing you and gives +20% movement speed in 3 seconds after that. (Can be used on both stance)
Sharpened Shurikens (Max level 1):
Whenever you use [Raining Shurikens], it has a chance of 7% to cause [Bleeding] whoever gets hit by the Shurikens.
Dash in the Shadows (Max level 1):
After you used [Slash and Dash Attack!], you will be in Stealth mode for 2 seconds.
Be one with the Shadows (Max level 1):
Whenever you are in Stealth Mode, you will gain +30% movement speed. It gives additional 1 second duration to all Stealth buffs.
Raining Shuriken Attribute (Max level 100):
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Slash and Dash Attack Attribute (Max level 100:
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 50)
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Tai Jutsu Mastery (Max level 5):
Whenever in Tai jutsu stance, your equipped weapons will be replaced by Fists. Fists will be considered as Blunt-Type Weapon and Strike-Type Damage. It gives +5% HP and +2% chance to resist to stuns, knock backs, and knock downs per level. In level 5, whenever in Tai Jutsu stance, when your health reaches 20% or below, it gives you +25% Physical Damage Reduction and Magical Damage Reduction and improves your attack speed +25% for 7 seconds.
Note: this is in level 1.
Rising Dragonās Fury (Max level 1):
Decreases Cooldown by 15 seconds. Enemies within the AoE raidus will be knocked down when you hit the ground.
Deadly Combo (Max level 1):
This utilizes the use Chi Punch and Heavenās Kick. In every combo, it deals additional damage to the enemy. These are the following Combos:
2 Chi Punch + 1 Heavenās Kick = deals additional damage to the enemy of 200ā¦
2 Heavenās Kick + 1 Chi Punch = deals additional damage to the enemy 235
3 Chi Punch + 1 Heavenās Kick = deals additional damage to the enemy 285
3 Heavenās Kick + 2 Chi Punch = deals additional damage to the enemy 315
Growling Tigerās Might (Max level 1):
Whenever the enemy is hit by [Growling Tigerās Uppercut], it slows the enemy for 1.3 seconds.
Fist of Fate (Max level 1):
Whenever you use [Chi Punch], it has a chance to [Armor-Break(reduces the enemyās physical armor by 15%)] by 6%. Last for 2 seconds.
Swift Kick (Max level 1):
Whenever you use [Heavenās Kick], it has a chance to [Slow} the enemy by 5%. Last for 2 seconds.
Chi Punch Attribute(Max level 50):
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Heavenās Kick Attribute (Max level 50):
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Growling Tigerās Uppercut Attribute (Max level 50):
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Rising Dragon Attribute (Max level 50):
Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.
Agreed to this but it would be better over all to the AoE, range & CDās of most of our offensive skill . We can argue for the auto attacks on Swordie class in general but if IMC fixes these 3 first it would be a step in the right direction.
We will have to agree to disagree, I donāt see them balancing wiz3ele3. I see them introducing new circles to alter the value of going those builds. We are dealing with less than half of the content in the game.
You also have to understand from a bussiness/ resource standpoint tweaking several skills and waiting to see what happens is much more intensive than genral adjustments across swordman and being done with it for now. IMC has many fires to deal with and swordman balance is very low on the list.
As 230 sword1/pelt1/hop2/cor2/dragoon, this is my few feedback.
Okay, Corsair.
Dust Devil give a mediocre damage, but good CC, i think it would be better if dust devil given dodge mechanic like jumping while in animation (this is for boss and ranged mob, not overpowered but give more fun way to use this skill)
Jolly Roger, while this skill is good, i think it would be better to give scaling to the combo counter, (right now its flat +5 if i recall, maybe like 2% each mob?)
Dual Wield Assault, this skill is doing their job well, but the problem is auto attack is not good past lvl 200++ due to mob scaling (High HP, Hit like a truck), maybe give more attack speed and more auto attack damage ( similiar to running shot but scale it lower eg: 150%? )
Now Dragoon.
Gae Bulg, this skill is sucks very hard, you throw the spear on fixed distance, give debuff for 7.5s at lvl 5, hit only once, and the problem with the debuff is, you spend 2 to 4 seconds to get the spear again, leaving a small window to make use of the debuff, not to mention you can screw up your positioning while try to get the spear, and to use it, you need to go position yourself to use it, hence lose of dps.
My suggestion to this skill is, to make it targetable and use animation like long stride ( you jump with your spear to designate location ) so we can use our skill immediately after gae bulg to make use of the debuff.
and make it multi hit, (1 for the spear strike, another hit on ground splash)
Now dragoontooth and serpentine, IMO this skill is already good, but mediocre if we compare it to another rank 7 skill ( lack of scaling, no overheat), my suggestion is a little scaling and give some debuff on hit ( serpentine bleeding attribute need to be higher chance on hit and like armor break maybe to increase party dps ).
I think some of this suggetion would make some swordman class good, not because of damage, but more mechanic and support viabilty based on debuff. ( we increase overall party dps instead increase our dps )
i dont think shinobi should use any item for anything. i mean if youāre gonna be realistic, why stop at shinobi? why not target archer while youāre at it, since they dont use ammo for their arrows or bullets
Hey Cathexis. Personally I think the main problem with swordsman class lies with the fact we have no ability to set damaging fields on the ground like all other classes do. Because we have to be always there, always close and we have no effects that we can cast and continue blocking for example - we are always losing on damage.
Wizards I donāt need to explain. Clerics have cure, zaibas, druid grass, statues, PDās burning, while being able to deal nice damage in the meantime of those taking effect ( if you couple that with bokor for example ). Archers have sapperās mines, wugushiās poison, falconer, fletcherās magic arrow and bleed ( also, massive bleed I guess ).
What do warriors have to compare it with? Bleeding is the only one that comes to mind. That is where the damage problem lies. Not only because we always have to be close to deal damage - which is fine by me, we are supposed to anyhow - but mostly because unlike other classes we canāt use a skill and run around or block while the mob is taking damage.
Iād say balancing the skills around damage will improve our dps but at the same time due to all the cc in the game we wonāt be able to utilize it ever to itās maximum potential regardless. I think a better way is to introduce or change some current skills to have a ground based effects which will allow us freedom to fight without rooting our character in place for the effect of the skill.
How big would it exactly be, according to your suggestion? Could you perhaps make a visual representation of it or something?
The problem is that both Stabbing and Pierce stab dirrectly in front of the character, so they donāt necessarily fit thematically because they are not attacking to the sides, like the Knight/Lord Knight skills did on RO.
However, the Cataphract class which fits more that thematic does have AoE skills which cover more ground on that. So I think that this is already covered by that class.
So level 15 = 15 hits of Catar Stroke. I will add this suggestion to the list.
I also think that charged skills give more freedom to Swordsman to deal more damage, as it is the same concept using with Wizards that have a casting time before dealing damage. Problem is that it is more difficult to execute as a melee character because they have to be at close range for it to work and most likely will take a lot of damage while charging.
But I do think there is value to increasing the number of hits on skills like Cartar Stroke.
Well, the idea is to make Highlander a better option for other builds too. That is why I also included Sword/Rapier/Spear+Dagger, as it gives another incentive for those higher ranked classes to pick Highlander on their builds.
I will add it to the list too!
All we can do is try! Thank you for your post.
This isnāt that much of a problem at higher levels. So I assume you would put the less cooldown/more skills at lower ranks?
Do you think it would be good to have a 0 CD skill option on both Peltasta and Highlander?
Or would it be better to have a way to increase auto-attack attack speed + damage (perhaps changing Concentrate to do that) since the first rank?
Would you increase the AoE Ratio naturally as a Swordsman character (I mean as itās base value) or do it through skills? If so, what would be an appropriate number in your opinion?
And lastly, for hitboxes. Increase all of them? Or just a few particular skills? Which ones do you think would be best for this?
I will add this to the list. Since it is pretty big, I will just link the entire post on there.
You mean like a gap closer?
What if the debuff time simply got increased? Maybe 10~15 seconds?
I added your other suggestions to the list.
And you did, thanks! I added them to the list.
That is very interesting.
But at the same time, I think that it doesnāt fit the āthematicā of every Swordsman class. So I donāt think that every class might be able to do something like this.
I am thinking that skills like Earth Wave, Katon no Jutsu and maybe Seism could fit into this theme.
What skills do you have in mind?
And about introducing new ones: To what classes would you give them to?
You mean for the mount to attack with you, or for it to passively increase your Physical Attack?
It isnāt much of a problem higher level because higher level swordman isnāt the one doing the hitting, or they canāt do the hitting. So it is just hidden but still there, but I wonāt delve too deep into that, too many have spoken.
Peltasta is actually a fine DPS with skills (low damage of course) with 2x overheat at 12s, could use some better mechanic though.
Highlander needs the 0s cd skyliner, or at least 7s cd 5x overheat like archer twin arrow. Can up the mana a bit if needed.
Concentrate needs changing for sure, more hits is the best, buffing concentrate is more of a chore than a buff.
About AoE ratio, I feel like adding 2-3 to base value is reasonable, because of many swordman classes I play, only hoplite hit as many as I like it (finestra +3 AoE ratio)
Hit box, hmm ā¦ Generally I feel the hit box of all swordman skills should be increased (maybe except earth wave, thatās the only one I feel satisfy with). The hit box of swordman skills are not only small, but also in weird shape (like literally weird shape), taking a few examples:
Hoplite stabbing is wider, but reach less than an auto attack
Cataphract doom spike reach further, but is narrower than an auto attack
Peltasta umbo blow reach all around you, but the radius is less than an auto attack.
I donāt play much barbarian, but last time I remember it, cleave also have lower reach than an auto attack.
