Tree of Savior Forum

Do people still build full dex?

General Discussion
#21

I will just calculate maxed cyclone damage with max (10) stacks of DoV with Lolopanther 2H sword only equipped. Assuming enemy has 0 crit defense (or it’s crit defense is covered by gear).
I will compare full DEX, STR:DEX 4:3, STR:DEX 5:2 with STR:DEX 6:1 and full STR.

STR:DEX 5:2. Average Patk 2534(with Deeds and Gung Ho), Crit chance is 15.75%.
Cycolne will deal ((1355+2534)*1.5+625)*0.1575+(1355+2534)*0.8425=4293 average damage per hit. Attribute will affect DEX and STR indifferently.

STR:DEX 6:1. Patk 2708, crit chance is 8.1%.
Cyclone will deal ((1355+2708)*1.5+754)*0.081+(1355+2708)*0.919=4289 damage/hit.

STR. Patk 2874, crit chance 1.05%.
Cyclone will deal 4305 damage/hit.

STR:DEX 4:3. Patk 2362(huge drop), crit chance 23.25.
Cyclone will deal 4264 damage/hit.

DEX. Patk 1724, crit chance 54.9.
Damage 3934.

The result is: for the most benefical STR build you will get nearly the same damage with Full STR /Heavy STR builds and your damage will drop at >30% DEX. Interesting result is, that we have at least 2 peaks: the damage grows again near 5:2 mark. It would be nice to make a graph, but I 'm too lazy for this. Also adding monster gem/DM will obviously benefit DEX more.

Yet I should admit that for Highlander Cyclone is one of the most damaging skills so STR will really benefit other skills more. BUT I made calculations with full stacks of DoV. With not full stacks adding dex will actually increase DPS (because crit attack will matter more).

And for Barbarian adding DEX is even better, because he will get up to 400 bonus attack from Frenzy and his skills hit harder.

And lastly, Dex will additionally grant you some survivalbility over STR and more overkills. That’s all.

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#22

Nice.

So it looks like this is at lvl 280, and you account for weapon range by averaging the high/low, alright.

If you’re assuming 0 crit defense, it looks like you would need full green gems and maybe even gear that applies a bit of crit rate to cover the average crit resist of enemies at 280 ( around 100 resist, but for the high crit resist enemies with ~200 you’re screwed really ).

This is also assuming the enemy has 0 defense?

Actually Deeds shouldn’t be included/matter then, since without accounting for defense, you’re essentially increasing the damage by a linear amount, so your results would have the same rankings, no? 0 defense also favors lower patk amounts, too.

#23

Highlanders Skull Swing nullifies enemy defense. So yeah, enemy has 0 defense.

Lolopanther leather set + 2 level 7 gems + amulet grant 180 crit rate, adding 1 sissel bracelet will grant you 216 crit rate. And there are some ways to lower enemy crit res as well, such as Zalciai.

I’m not sure about Deeds, but I feel like it should benefit STR more (because it makes skil damage and crit attack less significant comparing to STR bonus).

And finally, I don’t state it has better damage, I state that damage difference is insignificant, while evasion difference IS significant. Also better overkills etc. Also there are lots of damage/crit attack buffs, and no crit chance buffs (at least I don’t remember such buffs). And yeah, monstrance +30% DEX is not a joke.

It’s true that full STR Highlander migh deal ~10% more damage if playing solo, taking into account bleeding damage, skyliner, and other skills, but I think it’s better to get as much DEX as possible if it won’t result in huge DPS drop, like with 4:3 STR:DEX.

#24

I forgot to mention that all these thing will also drastically improve your DPS when fighting enemies with low crit res. And using them with Full STR build is kind of pointless, since on bosses you won’t crit anyway, and overall crit res will eat up most of it.

#25

archer needs no dodge if their strength is enough to kill always because they can far shoot :smiley: it makes sense archer concentrate on STR over DEX

but swordman is different. if a swordie is over pointing at DEX for dodge + critical rate, he will lose strength. so, vice versa. the headache part is swordman always need to do close gap attack (except a few skills). DEF multiplier applies the same across all classes unless swordie specifically chosen the tank classes. no matter how, swordie needs a lift from IMC, at least either at DEF wise or weapon attack wise.

i am not fans of swordie but experience the pain of the swordie at krToS.

#26

Archers are totally different story, they actually benefit much more from DEX, because they have lots of crit rate buffs.

In theory swordies looks totally fine for me, at least in PvE. Maybe I’m missing some important points, but their damage is quite high and they have much more CC then archers. Also swordies have much more AoE capabilities, including their autoattacks.

Though I agree that with recent archer buffs swordis fade as a damage dealer class, but Doppel/Dragoon are still great.

#27

sorry, asking a rude question. do you play in krToS?

you can easily find archer videos at youtube, but not swordman. i can simply explain why, because people are shame to show the attack damage of swordman.

#28

No, just theorycrafting with numbers/watching videos and preparing my build for iOBT)
And yeah, I saw all these videos with 4 QS/Chaplain and team cleaning earth tower untouched)

Still, feel like swordies are nice, and have some great synergy with linker C3.

#29

i don’t mean to criticize swordie. but you will see a lot problems after lv200, especially when high DEF mobs and high HP mobs. stats is one of the issue swordie faced. close gap attack is another issue that swordie faced.

i am not saying swordie is entirely bad, but definitely you will get tons of headache. archer can survive regardless what classes chosen but not swordie. swordie has a lot average classes (not to say it bad), that will create very average or low DPS compare to cleric/wizard/archer (if you care to compare). if you don’t, ignore my statement.

#30

High Def is solved with Highlanders Skull Swing/Fencer’s Def ignore. High HP mobs are tough for everyone.
I can’t see any issue with close gaps in PvE, if we have a peltasta in the team.

And I know swordies will most likely lose in terms of AoE damage to wizards and in terms of single target damage to archers (however those Cannoneers really hurt). But they seems pretty fun to play. And this “headache” is a part of fun.

Anyway my first char will most probably be a tank fencer, and it will be the only swordie in the party, so I don’t bother about damage too much, but I hope with my build I will dish out at least 30% DPS of my damage dealers.

#31

theory is easy, man :smiley: if you come across the experience, you will get it. when swordie is in solo mode, 2/10 swordie survived, 8/10 swordie complained. you don see this much solo problems at wizard/cleric/archer.

well, i will leave this topic for the people to find out later at iToS. no point to argue at now :smiley:

#32

When you say “100~150 DEX”, it literally means 100 and 150 DEX on stats window or 100~150 points in DEX? A Swordsman with 150 points of DEX will have around 191 of DEX, for example.

#33

Can you link to the videos? I can’t find them.

#34

simply to explain, you will barely find swordman videos except those are specifically strong one :smiley: probably 2/10 swordie are with strong builds and the rest are mostly average or weaker. let me show you something regarding a tanker to kill a mob around lv260:

now, speak it how i put stats on my shinobi at krToS. i have around 150 STR and 360 DEX at lv270. so it is like STR 1:4 DEX. here’re the video for my shinobi damage.

my shinobi build is considered as average attack build type (without bunshin activated to kill)

with bunshin, per kunai skill attack is around 80k damage. it can be better if chose some better classes buff like doppel at r6 with deed of valor, highlander class with critical attack +50%. these video simply tells you, not all swordman classes are good to be chosen for DPS. a lot swordman classes attack is very average. even the chose weapon will determine your attack power…

as you can see, barbarian is bad choice after lv200. some of the threads already explained it, many skills fall off from some classes at late stage. i have a babarian c2 instead of highlander c2 :confused: so, gg. even the weapon i equipped not 2 hands sword, so its weaker :confused:

wrong choice for DPS swordman really mean a lot. unlike archer classes, they are mostly viable from one to another. the most important thing, archer earlier rank’s skills are not being fell off…

mob info: http://www.tosbase.com/database/monsters/57924/, 80k hp. but i can say, many other archer/cleric/wizard builds can do a lot better DPS than i did at here. probably 5-10 seconds with a few skills to kill same amount monsters i did.

3 Likes
Question about barbarians
#35

Sure I’m planning to build 2/10 swordsman, that’s why I’m analysing their abilities to achieve best results.

I have an idea why some swordies complain so much, after I’ve seen some of their statements on the forum.

I think it’s rather points invested. If going with 40’s(7 40’s at level 280) system, it will be 2 to 4 40’s which is 80-160 points invested. It depends on your class/playstyle/preferences. But I’d suggest at least 2 40’s in DEX for everyone because as you can see damage will start to grow near 80 points. Or you can just drop DEX and aim for full STR if you don’t care about evasion/crit rate at all (not getting any crit rate/evasion specific gear/skills).

These numbers are just simplification. But it’s hard to calculate true min max route for an average user, because it includes too much variables and I don’t want to care too much because it kills all the fun. So just invest as much as you feel would fit, every stat distribution will be effective in certain cituations depending on enemies/equipment/party members. 40’s just make the process easier.

Sorry, they were in the middle of kToS thread, can’t find them either.

It’s definitely a great idea to level tanker solo that’s exactly what they are meant for.

Though we were mostly talking about C3 highlanders and barbarians (Barbarian is C3 or drop on my opinion) with Doppel C2 (Hoplite Dragoons are also great, especially at bossing). Though barbarian needs chrono to be 100% effective (otherwise frenzy stacks too slowly).

High C3 is only possible solo build on my opinion.

And I agree that for example Corsair C3 will most likely struggle unless he has High C3 for armor break. Though I feel corsair is more like support/cc focused swordsman for combos. I can easily imagine corsair focused party greatly utilising jolly roger passive.

I agree that some cleric builds can deal good damage, but clerics stack poorly (meaning 2 swordies + cleric are better then 3 clerics). Mages usually have high CD and need to pull mobs to quickly kill them. Also I agree that mage can deal the highest DPS if used correctly (I’m talking about those Earth tower vids). Archers are second and swordies only the third.

Yet if not chasing maximum DPS and building properly swordie is a very fun class to play (even in solo). And just as I’ve seen lots of players complaining, I’ve also seen lots of kToS players happy with their swordsmen.

2 Likes
#36

simple explanation: people enjoy swordman in krToS because they don’t compare, and these people are true swordman fans. for those people who pursuit DPS (someone like me), will complain swordman is rather mid-DPS class :smiley:

corsair is good at cc but c1 will be enough. there are people went for corsair c3 but they regret :smiley: because pistol shot doesn’t seem to work like what they imagined…

conclusion, IMC really need to buff more to swordman. especially to DEF multiplier that is something very special to a swordman even they don’t boost swordman attack. but something disappointed the swordman players, the DEF multiplier applied same math across all classes.

@STAFF_Ethan @STAFF_Ines @STAFF_J @STAFF_John @STAFF_Shawn

#37

i believe swordsman need a dispel skill or passive to pvp.
and maybe a bit more base HP instead of DEF?

#38

I always check youtube for new TOS videos and its true, i never saw a “smart” swordsman build. the builds we see in youtube usually suck.

like this guy in the video u linked, cmon!! pelstasta c2, hoplite c1, squire c1, cata c1 and dragoon WTF. its probably a kid playing swordie or a really dumb guy.

check this video for another good swordie

#39

@jinfin We get it, you play swordsman and want to complain everywhere about how you feel they underperform due to your personal experience ( Kinda wondering if you’re related to that Elfoc dude who will bust into any thread and begin to complain about how weak wizards are ). This isn’t a thread about swordsmen and how well they do, it’s about DEX builds. Care to make a thread of your own?

#40

alright, sorry :smiley:

/20 charas