Tree of Savior Forum

Do Archers Need CON at Endgame?

You know, games these days seem to always emphasize damage over survivability/ sustain. Back in my day in Diablo 2, people got just enough STR/DEX to equip their items and went full VIT for the rest.

This really relates to this game. It really seems like a majority of damage comes from skill level and crit scaling. I think this MOAR DEEPS mentality is really interesting these days vs the times I remember.

moar deeps is appropriate for a class tree which focuses on “moar deeps”
even the most defensive class becomes a moar deeps machine (QS3)

faster kills = more loot = more deeps
its a vicious cycle lol.

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The thing I was hinting at is that the damage in this game really comes from late circle rank skills. Say a 600 base damage Snipe that improves to 12000 with attributes.

Add on your 500-600 damage Musket (a +12 Pensara Musket) and you have 700-800ish base damage with 200 STR giving you another 200 damage. Snipe scales at 400% of attack…so your final Snipe damage comes out to be around 16600 max. The STR you gained contributed to 200 damage x 400% = 800 damage. 800/15200 = 5.2%

Thus… your 200 STR contributed around 5% extra damage on your Snipe.

More damage is contributed on crit since STR scales crit damage too. Take heed that this is napkin math and I don’t really know how the formulas work. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but 5% extra damage from going tons of STR doesn’t seem like much.

You could of just gone CON instead and let the base damage carry you…

Last night I was leveling in a level 53 zone and there were wizard-type monsters that hit me hard with their never-miss spell attacks. For once I had to chug HP potions. That’s why I can see some CON helping at higher levels.

You can’t dodge magic, that’s why full dex is never recommended.

that 200 gets multiplied by a lot actually
each additional rank gives 10% more str (60% at rank 7) thats 320 str
each point of str gives 1min-1max phys damage
thats a flat +320 min/max
that gets doubled by attribute damage too
so 320 + 100%
if your attack crits
640 + 50% + 200(from str crit damage)
if your skill is mutli hitting (multishot lvl 9 (10 hits))
with 50% crit rate half of the hits crit
roughly 9000 average damage at only 50% crit chance
from just 200 str

snipe has a different forumla
(640 x 4)
2560 minimum damage
if it crits: (640 x 4) + 50% + 200
4040 max damage
3300 average damage with 50% crit
with 200 str

now for a short summary
str is better for skills with lots of hits, most longer CD skills and nukes hit multiple times
str is worse for single hit spamming attacks

this is where dex comes in, since dex will give you crit rate to multiply the base damages, so its the other offensive stat thats taken instead of getting con.

for a comprehensive damage formula check this thread

information on stats and how they scale

Some of that looks strange.

First, I said 200 STR, so it is 200 STR. Not 200 points of STR, but 200 STR. If you dumped 200 points of STR in, you would be level 190 or above and didn’t actually maximize damage since you should be doing some mix of STR/ DEX that can be determined through a spreadsheet of damage vs crit.

Thus, 200 STR is 200 damage. Let’s go for Snipe first. I forgot that attribute scales STR damage, so it would be 200 (STR bonus) x 4 (Snipe 400%) x 2 (attribute bonus) = 1600 damage from STR. Thus, assuming our 800 damage Musket, we have 800 x 4 x 2 = 6400 + 12000 from base damage = 18400 damage. 1600 of that is from STR, thus our final STR contribution to total damage is 1600/18400 = 8.7%.

Thus, we have contributed probably around 170 or 180ish points of stats to deal 8.7% more damage on a non crit. Which is pretty likely to not crit since we invested 170 to 180 levels of stats to STR instead of crit.

Now if we crit, we deal 50% more damage + 200 from STR +1 crit. So our Musket deals (800 x 4 x 2) x 1.5 = 9600. 2400 of that is from STR. Snipe’s base deals 12000 x 1.5 = 18000. So in total, we did 9600 (musket)+ 18000 (Snipe)+ 200 (crit + 1 from STR) = 27800. The 200 + 2400 of that is from STR. Thus 2600/27800 = 9.3% damage contribution from STR.

Now 9%, hell lets round to 10% extra damage isn’t nothing. If we extrapolate this to all actions, saying that having 200 STR adds an extra 10% to all our attacks, then that is significant over time.

The thing is…if STR only contributed to 10% of base damage, then that means base damage is actually the majority of damage. If we had 10 STR (let us assume 10 is base STR), then Snipe would still deal 12000 + (600 (Musket) + 40 (10 STR) x 2 (attribute) damage = 13300 damage. Compare that to 18400 and you get that Snipe’s base damage 13300/18400 = 72.3% of the damage.

Basically, if you add nothing to damage stats, you still have 72.3% of the damage you would normally be dealing due to base damage alone. If League of Legends has taught me anything, its that bruiser champions with high base damage only need to be tanky to roll over those that went glass cannon. In this case,

200 CON would have given you 17000 more HP. 17000 HP alone with HP from leveling would easily get you over the 18400 damage Snipe that an enemy Musketeer who went 200 STR would deal to you. Now…your 13300 damage Snipe still 1 shots the glass cannon who probably has less than 10000 HP.

Also, since CON gives crit resist…your 200 crit resist from CON will probably nullify the crit rate of the 200 STR Musketeer meaning he won’t get a lucky crit to kill you.

Anyway, TLDR, damage scaling isn’t everything.

why are you basing the contribution of only snipe lol?
snipe is one of the highest base damage skills in the game
but in terms of efficient damage its could actually be less than spammed abilites like bodkin point or crossfire
according to current data, snipe has a base damage of 26018 at lvl 15 with 100% atribute with a 25 second cd.
snipes effective base DPS is 1040.72 (26018 / 25)

now, the amount of times you can spam something like say bodkin point during the 25 second CD has to be taken into account, each instance of casting that ability will increase the overall contribution of str to the entire 25 second duration

if we veiw it this way the contribution str gives is actually huge.

if the same logic is applied to even lower cost spammed abilities like oblique shot, the damage contribution will increase significantly

multi hitting skills with lower base damages per hit like multi shot and barrage, will also net higher percentages from str.

imo, damage scaling isnt everything but its more to archer and wizard classes than the others
based on the amount of hits you can put out and the amount of low to 0 cd skills in the archers tree it makes damage scaling fairly important, as they are the archetypal damage class.

im not saying con is bad, but it goes against what archers are supposed to do, and thats giving “moar deeps” to a party.

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Well, do the math for me. I spent the time to do Snipe.

In the end, you would be willing to invest more on a stat that goes hand in hand with gears. Eventually, weapons will have high base attack so skills with high %damage per sec will outperform skills with just high fixed damage. This also means that STR is a better investment since you went for high %damage per sec.

After playing MMOs for so long. The bandwagon with high burst skills is really common. Tons of players are blinded by big numbers instead of looking at the potential DPS.

Magic Arrow has 100% modifier and 25 hits at Lv15 with just 5s cooldown. But since it does only 100% per tick, players are staying away from it even though it has the strongest DPS potential in the game. Running Shot can’t even compare since Running Shot does not have attribute while Magic Arrow can have Lv100 damage attribute increasing it’s total damage by two folds.

just to highlight str lets do:
oblique shot (probably the most spammed skill in the game)
using only str and base damage

at lvl 15 with max attributes it does 892 base damage
i have no idea how much oblique shots can be cast within 25 seconds, but just from eyeing it seems like the cast time is the same as an auto attack (1 per second) but to make it interesting lets use a high ping scenario where the cast time is increased to 1.3 seconds (basically a 30% damage reduction)

with 200 str we get +400 damage with maximum attributes, at 0.7 aps we get roughly 17.5 shots in 25 seconds

oblique shot: 15610 total base damage in 25 seconds
+7000 in 25 seconds from str
for a total combined damage of 22610
around 31% damage contribution from str over the 25 second period.

if we crit 50% of the time
(+25% to both str and base contribution then another (200x8.75) for str

oblique will do an average of 19512.5 over 25 seconds
str will add around 8750 damage (without each instance of crit damage)
with crit damage
it adds 10500
for a total of 30012.5

if our crit, is 50%
str will have a 35% damage contribution over 25 seconds

now this is using oblique shot to emphasize the contribution of str, it will be lower with higher base damage skills, BUT thats with 200 str. we have to keep in mind that str scales exponentially with more points and higher crit rate

So…similar to Snipe where 65-70% is base damage and 30-35% damage comes from STR. The crit doesn’t seem to add much in our comparison of base damage vs bonus damage since the bonus crit from STR is so paltry.

So for our single target scenario, a guy that did STR (and probably has low DEX) has around 30-35% more DPS than a guy who went pure CON who has around 15000-17000 more HP.

I think for PVP, it is obvious pure CON wins. 70% of the damage is still enough to kill the pure STR guy at current equipment and level caps.

I’ll argue that having so much HP also helps in Earth Tower, where ■■■■ deals insane damage and Heal scales off max hp.

Basically, I’m saying pure CON is very viable in the current state of the game. If you die due to not having enough max hp to tank a hit, then you lose probably more than 30% dps. Also, hings just don’t scale very well sans some skills that deal many hits.

Remember, people die when they are killed.

never said con was bad lol
and the question wasnt about it being viable or not, its if archers need it, they do. but not too much, since they are not tanks, they are damage dealers.

in ET the dudes i rolled with usually recruit the heaviest dps and aoe, then roll with a support with lots of invinicibilty zones, like diev C3 and Druid C2.
diev is very valued since it can silence the mobs and prevent them from spamming capture

care to explain?

The STR part of the 18400 was 1600…or around 9%. Thus, STR in that scenario only contributes 10% of total damage compared to the other 90% which is from Snipe + the +12 Pensara Musket (guaranteed +12 through Golden Anvils).

if you get rid of the weapon (which should not be factored as we are comparing str to base damage)

youll get 11.7% damage contribution based on your math, the rest is from snipe

Hell, looks like I forgot to multiply the CON formula by 4 in the calculations.

Should be (600 (Musket) + 10 (STR)) x 4 (Snipe scaling) x 2 (attribute) = 4880 damage + 12000 from Snipe = 16880 damage. 16880/18480 = 92%.

A 200 STR Snipe only deals 8% more damage than a 200 CON Snipe.

Why would you leave out the weapon in this? You do use a weapon when using Snipe right (BTW, it requires you to use a Musket).

were not trying to determine how much contribution the weapon would have over the the base dps and str

since your questioning strs effectiveness over the base damage of snipe
which is puny because snipe is a single hit attack, front loaded with base damage, unlike the variety of multi hitting spammable skills within the archers tree.

in most cases weapon damage is far more significant than both str and base damage, and would just skew the comparison of base damage vs str needlessly.

i dont get why your so tunneled on snipe, its a strong skill but its purpose is burst damage for finishing off low hp enemies, its not a dps oriented skill that scales too well with str or base damage. its mostly raw base damage which seems to be the main attraction for you since you can just grab it and stack con.

So, if weapon damage is literally 3x the amount of scaling in this scenario than STR, then what does that say about STR scaling?

that it gives more damage?

not everyone can aford +12 weapons and not everyone will wear 2handers with high base damages,

str is just a practical stat to have for doing damage since its so readily available and scales up with ranks so the more invested the bigger the returns.