Before we start i’d like to point out that this thread in particular will work with a concept that makes part of the game yet isn’t as explored, it will be less into diving in the current elements present and more about expanding the system. With that in mind we can resume to the real discussion.
Weapons are often part of the game discussion for their stats, effects or how they restrict class interactions but one thing that isn’t that talked about is how they’re represented in the game. Currently they have the same base stats on wielding, a corresponding damage property (slash, strike or pierce) and their own hitbox, sometimes one small feature to make them feel apart but that’s basically where it ends. That said weapons do carry some extra effects through equip and mastery attributes but those may be completely forgotten when playing, even then some effects are quite dull and provide low value on their bonuses.
These non-class threads under Design Breakdown come with a small disclaimer to warn people about development limitations and that IMC may implement some features due them but that isn’t the case here, that said let’s take a look into weapons. For the sake of the game environment the lethality of each weapon will be ignored as any of those can be as deadly if it hits right, the main focus here is to discuss how those weapons operate in real life, what special characteristics they have and how that is translated in the game.
Compatibility and restrictions
Weapons are associated as the equipment that is used to inflict damage to an enemy, however the concept of weapon started as the active tools used in combat and this include defensive gear such as shield. Armor is taken as an individual category as is completely static protection. That said not all weapons have unique interactions enabled and only offers one attack variant (ignoring animation), for two handed weapons this is quite a missed since it can’t use offhand interaction on C nor get extra stats from it.
The way Tree of Savior handle weapons isn’t exciting, not most games do it any better, as the variations on gameplay are property damage on basic attacks and range/hitbox, in fact weapons can be more of a chore depending on the build since classes define restrictions by their skills. Basic attacks are seldom taken as an element to play with some punctual exceptions as skills that change the basic mechanic, mostly additional lines and/or damage split, but even then they don’t provide variance to combat, with Falconer’s Pre-emptive Strike is the only exception as it has cooldown to be triggered. Despite that there’s no real strategic value in picking one weapon type over the other which is quite boring from a design perspective, there’s not a single skill in game that takes the weapon attack property to deal damage as well which can be an attractive feature for particular classes.
For the sake of simplification it is reasonable that all weapons have the same functionality with one or two small differences and it isn’t a good idea to have every single one of them with unique mechanics, however by making streamlined it can be understood as saying every weapon is the same - bows and cannons are both ranged weapons but have different strengths and weaknesses. Maces are a real exception here as it owns two primary stats, when this idea was introduced it opened up a lot of possibilities to be explored yet it never developed further (even that being expanded on the armor side).
Each base class has a set of weapons that can be equipped by default, swordsmen and cleric has one handed swords, maces and rods, wizard has rods and staves, archer has bow and crossbow, the newcomer Scout one handed swords and pistols, in addition each one of them can also use shields and daggers. There are other weapons types that can be equipped later but they’re locked behind specific classes, as one side it serves as a small milestone when changing into a class but it also prevents players to take the weapon they want if their build is settled without one of those.
It is possible to have a build composed completely of Peltasta, Rodelero and Murmillo with the only requirement to be shield bearing, yet it is impossible to pick spear nor rapier and is also the case with Hunter, Falconer and Sapper if so desires to use firearms. If for some reason the player with this build is lucky to get a great rare weapon under those groups it won’t be able to use it due a mere formality, that said the game shouldn’t abolish weapon restrictions their classes but rather lift some of the weight on them so the fantasy can be expanded. As a side issue taking an off hand weapon, except for Scout, brings no real benefit to the wielder, as for the exception this is as true for the main hand weapon.
Ideally each weapon should have some sort of value imbued to make them feel less alike but that’s not as easy to deal with at all, something as simple as having an additional primary stat can be enough to add some twist to a mostly static element in the game and solve some issues that may come ahead with Re:Build. If each weapon offers a second primary stat it they can contribute to the combat but not as raw damage, it is a form to guarantee said stat will be present for those that chose it and can get it boosted through enhancement and/or transcendence. Not revolutionary but is better than have the offensive values across the board.
One Handed Swords
Swords is the weapon with the most disadvantages from the list, it’s believed that they were developed as longer type of knife adapted to combat. This can be seen on the guard (or cross guard for european swords) as it protects the hands from sword strikes, chopped on a bind, and how they offer more attack angles than other melee weapons, it’s harder to predict a weapon with more options of attack and that’s one of the most important features when fighting people. Historically swords were sweeped out of action with protection improvement as they couldn’t penetrate with cuts, even before that well use of shields was nullify their attacks. Despite all that swords were the best choice as backup and traveling weapons, they’re light and short enough to be easily carried around and have enough offensive and defensive power to useful in combat.
Even then swords are harder to craft than more effective combat weapons and they require a lot of time and skill to be made in comparison to any other weapon, overall it isn’t the kind of gear you would want to take for a fight. This made people believe only the nobility were allowed to have them but it was mostly an economical matter, posteriorly swords would become a symbol of nobility and justice which is why it is so common in fantasy media even being less effective weapons.
If we take swords as the bottom line of weapon design then the weapon can be taken as well represented and even be used as baseline comparison for other, there is a mastery attribute to either add the sword attack to shield or increase attack speed without it and this is all it got. From a mechanical perspective they can’t be taken too low either but none of the other weapons need to be stronger in raw numbers to be well represented. Assuming each weapon demands as secondary stat the most fitting would be accuracy as evasion will be a big factor in Re:Build, it is an effective way to promote the weapon without shifting the power balance and that also make Scouts slightly more effective against its own kind.
Two Handed Swords
We often see those in media as a strong heroish cool weapon used to swipe hordes but they’re not nearly this effective, in fact using those without heavy armor, as is the case most of the time, it’s a terrible idea. What makes two handed swords more effective their shorter counterparts is the additional range, mass and longer grip, not only you can hit from farther but the extra weight and double grip enhance force output allowing it to through some types of armor, and perhaps damage plate. Unlike spears they have lethality proportional to their length which is effective when dealing with multiple enemies, that said the only part of a two handed sword that can’t be used in combat is the handle. In scenarios that slashing proves itself useless the half swording fighting style can be employed, which isn’t as practical with shorter blades. This has the wielder holding the blade instead of the handle, it can have the sword to be used in quick stabs or take the pommel as an improvised mace, both being important techniques to deal with full plate.
There’s not much of a difference between one handed and two handed swords in game aside the raw attack value and the +1 AAR provided by it, the only mastery attribute related is in Highlander and increases CPAtk by up to 50%. Since the only other two handed weapon for swordsman tree is spear, which is a single target weapon, it would be a great fit to have AAR as a second primary stat, the other option is to go for CPAtk as is less reliable but can serve as an offensive counterpoint to shield’s additional defense. In some sense it may be too much to have this additional power to two handed swords but as critical rate is a rare stat for the classes aligned with the weapon it wouldn’t be as impactful, it’s a high reward for lucky strikes but much of a reliable feature. As a side effect it could be interesting to have the C interaction as the current Highlander’s Cross Guard, two handed weapons lack the second key interaction and it can work better than being a special move to be locked out in a specific class(especially with Re:Build block being less effective).
Rapiers
Many believe (fencing) foils, epees and other weapons of same category are rapiers as they have similar shape and share a similar fighting style, however rapiers are as heavy as regular one handed swords and won’t bend in thin air. Unlike regular swords the focus is in thrust, still being able to cut, as the blade is longer and thinner with a more elaborated guard that changes the weapon balance, by using the lever principle the wielder can reposition the point quickly in ways conventional swords won’t and that open up unconventional attack angles. Some say Rapier’s thin blade was designed to pierce through full plate as few weapons would be effective against it, thick fabric armor can get thrusted as force is directed to a single point while plate wearers can be taken down by striking between armor gaps.
One important point to address here is how having a Rapier equipped changes the character into competitive fencing stance, it’s great when offhand isn’t used (and can slide off for daggers) but stupid with shields equipped. The point that stance is to have less of the body exposed and only have the weapon directed to the opponent, it puts a lot of the action in footwork to strike and evade limiting the combat to the essential elements. If a shield is available then it makes more sense to use it as another defensive tool instead of holding it at the other far end, in fact it makes the whole combat exhausting as the shield arm has to move back and forward for every single block. As the last animation element to discuss the particles and motion could be improved to feel more thrusting, it may be a personal issue but the effects look more like a slash than pierce.
There’s no real benefit from using rapiers and the only attribute related to them is in Fencer and increases Pierce damage up to 15% as long shield isn’t equipped, in raw numbers it isn’t enough to even out two handed weapons in power. Rapiers are required only for two classes and are pushed by these same classes to not be used with shields, as a sword variant it should be compatible with it on some skill restrictions. On Re:Build that could be the cue to get Hackapell as a viable option from start, especially as it has almost no offensive class to take on, and also be less sensitive on Fencer and Matador skills as some could be performed with one handed swords, and the later even with spears.
If we consider rapiers and one handed swords more similar than different, and Fencer takes it as an epee, it could be possible to take those two as the same base weapon and remove restrictions between those two groups completely. In fact it would be possible to introduce subtype weapons using smaller distinctions and address them in the same way all weapons are, taking only the attack property differently or possibly a second primary stat. Regardless of what would be done to rapier the weapon is associated to critical by the only classes that requires it and that wouldn’t be much of a bad idea for a second stat.
Spears
A true warrior weapon, they’re cheap and fast to make, have a decent range, can be used along shields, may slide in plate gaps, chainmail and pierce through thick fabric. Even if a spear is broken it can have the pole replaced as the spearhead is detachable. Aside for portability spear beats sword in almost every single aspect, even in wildlife combat it has the upper hand as the narrowed attack angles don’t matter as much as the additional range. The weakest part of the spear is the pole as it has no lethality power, and can be cut off with a powerful cleave, but can still be used to incapacitate enemies with blut strikes or stop incoming attacks. Another issue with spears is how it can only hit one enemy and has to come back after a thrust, it’s not the quickest weapon at all means and can even be wasted depending on how it is used but that is compensated by the safety it provides.
In game they have additional range and damage towards medium and large enemies, Hoplite can go further and add up to 20% additional damage to medium size foes and this alone is enough to get spears a defined identity. If we keep double stat tread the most suitable stats are critical rate, critical attack and block penetration, however critical is a dangerous stat to play with spears as Hoplite already does it and adding it to the weapon can make spear dominate the tree easily.
Two handed spears have no additional damage but still keep the extra range (doubled), there is an attribute in Dragoon to boost damage against large monsters and bosses and one in Cataphract for up to 50% chance to ignore block. As block penetration is in Cataphract and is also part of Lancer it could be taken as a default second primary stat, the other options are in the critical side which has the same issue as the one handed. The weapon also lacks a C interaction and here it could be interesting to have either a cleave like circular attack around the user dealing slash damage or a defensive projectile spin, it is fitting as the regular hitbox is way thinner and that motion works with longer spears. However if spears are really meant to be represented properly the best course is to have more range and attack only one enemy regardless of AAR, mostly a shorter version of crossbow but truly unique for the tree.
One Handed Blunt/Mace
Maces are often exaggerated in games as the real ones didn’t had head as large as portrayed and weight about the same as a regular sword, despite the primitive design they were taken as real battlefield weapons way after spear and swords due the evolution of armor rendering them ineffective. That said maces were already present through history before full plate but weren’t as popular than in late medieval times.
Once full plate stepped the known weapons couldn’t harm the enemy and the only option was to thrust the vulnerable spots, having a metal stick with most of its weight on one side in conjunction with flanges proved to be effective against this kind of protection as strong blows may break some bones and with enough persistence it can crack the armor for dagger stabs. This same weight distribution is a hindrance when developing a fighting style for the blunt weapons even for a simplistic weapon, as a fact it’s quite hard to stop the blow midway and redirect the strike into a different direction.
Taking that in consideration it is odd for maces to be a hybrid weapon for physical and magic damage instead of block penetration, as blunt is associated to clerics, and they don’t fit that well with other weapons, it can slide of for sake of balancing. It’s quite funny that maces as the most interesting weapon in the game even being completely niche, that said it isn’t fitting so say the way the game portraits it is faithful to the source. That said this unique trait doesn’t really promote the weapon as much since magic oriented cleric uses a mace it won’t bother that much to deal basic attacks while skills are on cooldown, it may be useful on the earlier levels but dismissable later on specially when some classes have AA modifiers. The only attribute regarding this weapon is a healing enhancer and that supports the tree oriented use it already has.
Two Handed Blunt/Mace
Virtually the same as one handed version. The presence of real two handed maces is questionable unless counting it as polearms, that are closer to spears than maces, as they can have a blunt side, a blade and a spike in the tip. Regarding mechanics the two handed version offers two different attributes for Monk, as block penetration, and Paladin, as AAR.
When two handed blunt was added to the game the goal was to improve physical oriented classes, as those are the only ones able to equip them, yet the weapon carries MAtk as along, if a player dove that hard into one of those classes and took the weapon it would be quite unlikely for it to care about the magical side in the first place. What could really make a difference as a quality of life for them is to replace MAtk for Healing as it isn’t as easy to achieve on physical route, it’s a simple way to improve their supportive power and compensate their lower defensive capabilities. Regarding a C interaction there’s nothing that feels natural straight away skills cover the weapon usage already, perhaps some sort of knock back effect by swinging the mace upwards.
Rods and Staves
As magical type weapons it doesn’t matter much to compare it with a real life counterpart, however what is partially missing on it is the inherent ability to shot magic bolts. In game that’s delivered as wizard’s default basic attack denying the functionality to clerics despite hitting only one enemy at time, it would be expected for this feature to be bound to weapon instead of a class and doing so also disables the ability to fire bolts with maces and swords. In addition it could be interesting to have elements as part of the weapon stats for both basic attacks and adaptive skills if weapon property conversion mechanic makes into the game.
There will be an attribute for rods to shorten casting time and that is ideal as the second stat ranging from minimal to the current values when said attribute is maxed, for staves this can be done as CMAtk or elemental property attack to boost the offensive power further.
Crossbows
One of the few mechanical field weapons used in middle ages, it is nothing more than a bow on a cross which is more expensive to make but doesn’t require intensive training to be effective. Real crossbows such thick strings that users had to place it on ground and pull it with both hands resulting in a longer reload time that incapacitates the ranger completely, there were some tools created to speed up the process and allow the wielder to see the surroundings. The real advantages of crossbow is how it doesn’t require the user to build up strength nor get it to train for years, it isn’t as strong as a bow won’t tire the archer if it has stay in fire position for long.
Just as the source it has shorter range than bows even tho both are two handed weapons, with Re:Build this was fixed as it is physically impossible to reload crossbows as quick, even more when mounted, and shot with a pistol at the same time. Since crossbows are the only one handed ranged weapon it doesn’t really need any stat to be taken along as the ability to used with shield is enough (exclusive within archer), if that was indeed require accuracy is fitting.
Bows
An interesting fact about bows is how they require strength as much, if not more, as dexterity to be effective and that’s an unusual peculiarity the developers got right. In games archers are usually taken as quick drawers but that is a tricky subject to deal with as modern archery is rather slow and deals with precision more than anything, yet some few sources point out that medieval time archers could fire multiple arrows precisely and even in motion. Even then archers have limitations on how many arrows they can carry and how many they can take before reaching the quiver, since the game doesn’t deal with ammo both arguments can be ignored. As a quick note by not making ammo part of the game it can’t implement different types of arrows to exploit enemy weaknesses, yet that makes the game flow better as players always have their offensive tools available.
Just as accuracy is responsible to represent hit and miss critical does the me for regular and perfect aimed shots and as such the most fitting stat for bows is critical rate. One interesting feature to have for bows is a C attack as blind aim shot, instead of the usual targeted aim it fires an arrow on direction the character is facing hitting the first enemy on the path.
Rifles/Muskets
Firearms were completely unreliable in their early stages, muskets with their long smooth barrels were long range firearms that had deadly fire power but lacked accuracy. It was discovered that by groovin the gun barrel in a helical pattern bullets will spin while accelerating gaining more penetration power and precision, this process was named rifling and later led the rifled gun to rifles we see today (which is the real weapon used in game). The other issues with muskets is how the ammo had to be reloaded for each shot and the fact they required constant maintenance in to prevent the weapon to malfunction or even explode, despite that firearms had a huge impact on the battlefield even in the early days as they had enough power to pierce through place and range.
There’s no special characteristic visible in the weapon aside the buttstroke attack on C that is questionable on efficiency (as Archer has base 1 AAR), on that regard rifles have extra accuracy and increasing damage with greater distance through attributes. Knowing the capability of armor piercing it would be fitting to have block penetration as a second stat, however the fantasy related to the weapon would allow critical attack to be taken as well.
Cannons
Cannons are more rudimentary firearms used for artillery, it uses the same logic as any other weapon of its group but in a larger scale which can be seen as an evolution of the trebuchet due the size and weight of projectile. The earliest cannons had to be loaded by its muzzle as they required thickness to resist the explosion and having a large opening on the pipe could compromise the efficiency, that made it fairly slow to reload but at least had the advantage easier setup, usage and transportation than other siege weapons and that also allowed it to be used on smaller scale combats. Compared to other ranged weapons they’re the slowest, heaviest and deadliest of them and have recoil proportional to their power, it isn’t the type of weaponry that could be taken to a small fight and not as easy to use as the game presents.
With the change on wielding cannons will be closer to real weapons as their current state has them a mere decoration despite being equippable by default, that said it would be easy to have a follow up giving it block penetration as a secondary stat or take AAR to capitalize on Cannoneer’s nature. Since cannons are all about magnitude they can have some form of splash damage when taken to a direct target and as a C action either some form of short range explosion or even a blind aim shot in area to follow up the weapon characteristics. In fact cannons can have their C attack as a charged shot or some form of ground targeting attack as well, few weapons have that option available from scratch.
Pistols
The portable firepower, with their smaller barrels they were fairly easy to reload and don’t require any strength compared to other ranged weapons. Not only that but pistol ammo is can be stored in large quantity unlike than arrows and bolts, even factoring the gunpowder in it still has the easiest setup for less training. Those characteristics made it a great to be used on horse riding and even if they couldn’t hit the target it was enough to reduce their action range.
With Scout being the only one to equip the weapon it became more of a fake ranged melee weapon, it does have more range than other weapons but also locks movement and has splash damage. Making use of the weapon unpredictability critical attack may be one of the best options for pistols followed by block penetration as being a firearm, critical rate is as valid but not as interesting since the weapon is Scout exclusive.
Daggers
Daggers are often taken as cowardly weapons and assassination tools, that’s rather true as their short length makes them easy to conceal and are terrible in direct combat. One thing that few know is that daggers were important weapons against full plate armor, the strategy was to incapacitate the enemy for then finish it with the dagger through an armor gap. That’s also possible to be pulled off with other weapons but they can’t be as quick nor precise due their additional length.
One interesting direction to be taken for daggers is use the chain attack effect from. Dual Weapon Assault available as a default feature, this alone is enough to promote daggers as a viable choice for AA oriented builds in all trees. Stat wise critical rate is the choice to go, since daggers are available for all classes it can become an offensive counterpart to shields for one handed wielders.
Shields
The concept of a shield is to have a tiny portable wall of protection that can be moved around whenever needed, as any weapon attack can be lethal in real life it was an essential combat equipment. One misconception about shields is how they’re held, few shields were strapped in the arm as doing so decreases the range and can’t be turned without moving the whole arm. It’s possible to turn the shield using only the hand with a single grip, stapled shields, usually heater shields, were used for horse riding and in army formations. In order to protect warriors shields have to be thick enough to stop blows without cracking and that means extra weight. With the advent of full plate shields became less needed as a whole, however as they were cheaper and could be used while a warrior is building its armor set it kept relevant despite being less practical and effective.
The real change with shields is how they offer the ability to block passively, currently only shield classes and Paladin can use it as an active effect through C but in Re:Build it seems like Quarrel Shooter will also acquire this ability even tho all classes should be able to. Block has been the same as evasion for most of the game history and that will be changed to have damage reduced to half, it isn’t as accurate as blocking an attack nullifies all damage, or close to, but from a balancing point is a smart move. That said shields don’t need any secondary stat as they already have a unique value on their own, yet it could be handy to have block stat as part of it since the stat will be less effective anyway.