Tree of Savior Forum

Combat and why it isn't discussed enough

Hey there, greetings.

I like strong openings, so I’d like to start by saying that combat in ToS terrible. Alright, we got that out of the way. What? I’m coming out too strong? Okay let’s rephrase: as some other random forum user once said in all his wisdom, “monsters that run are not fun nor hard game content, they’re just annoying”. And yes, I am annoyed right now.

I would like to clarify that this thread isn’t meant for specific class discussion, but the combat system in the game as a whole in its most basic features. I understand that sometimes it’s impossible to separate class mechanics from these basic combat features but let’s keep it to a minimum. Nevertheless, I hope people can contribute and voice their own opinions.

Many of the things I’ll write about have already been mentioned in other threads, and some are very, very old feedback, but since I haven’t seen many changes it doesn’t hurt to refresh the memory.

The first point is targeting in ToS. Melee classes usually don’t have a problem with this, but ranged classes do. I saw this piece of feedback all the way back in a topic from the first closed beta, but it got lost in time: consider please adding settings for different kinds of priority for targeting, like prioritizing from the nearest targets or from the farther ones. I know, I know, ranged classes often want to use the mouse, but this is a much needed QoL addition for people who know the mouse controls were half-assedly implemented in the game back in 2014 after Korean uproar because IMC explicitly said they would never ever implement mouse as an option (which they were force to do in the end). The target circle that indicates which of the 50 monsters on your screen you’re actually targeting often disappears under the floor, and this obviously doesn’t help. Again, I know this is not much of a problem for melee classes, AoE beasts, mouse and gamepad users, but is it really that much to ask? I mean, when your target gets stuck in one of the party’s Pyromancer’s fireballs you know something’s ■■■■■■ up.

Second, the now classic “monsters who run away mid-combat make me want to stab someone in the kidneys”. Contrary to popular belief, not only melee classes find this extremely annoying, and while Archers may have a better time dealing with it, it’s still a demonstration of not knowing what genuine challenge is. Monsters run away randomly (sometimes they come back, sometimes they don’t, but we’re too young and detached to care), even in dungeons, for no apparent reason. See, the problem isn’t that monsters run away, it’s that it isn’t integrated in an intelligent way and just serves to interrupt the flow of combat unnecessarily. I’d like to say more about the lack of intelligent design in ToS and counter-intuitiveness but others have said enough and much better.

Knockbacks also fall in this same error. They don’t serve any real purpose other than to disrupt the player and make them angry, because let’s not fool ourselves, more often than not what’s coming right after a knockback is… another knockback, in an endless, unavoidable chain.

Avoid? Yeah, that’s a nice word every person that plays games is familiar with, and it leads us to my last complaint, which has also been mentioned by other people: hitboxes for attacks are bullshit. Simple as that. I can’t help but be reminded of the “abnormally large” hitbox of the Snipe skill which was fixed thankfully. I just killed Demon Lord Zaura and it’s incredible how that boss fight alone manages to combine all these points perfectly. Good thing we have Oracles with Forecast, right? Well, Oracles are always welcome (no they aren’t who am I kidding) but they can’t fix two things: a ■■■■■■ up hitbox that doesn’t match an attack’s visual indication and the fact that even if you step out of the attack indicator, chances are it will still hit you.

I will mention animations, because if you weren’t able to step outside that attack circle of whatever boss you’re fighing, I’m willing to bet it was thanks to being stuck in your long-ass animation for whatever you were doing. I won’t discuss this since much has been said in other threads after the change to animation cancelling, but I’d still like to let everyone know that yes, animations need to be revisited because what people want is fluid combat, because that’s what makes it fun, and if it isn’t fluid it’s most likely that the root of the problem are the animations.

Thanks for reading to this point, I hope you can share your opinions. I always see people discussing these things separately in many threads, but I think it’s important to put it all together and see how everything contributes to a miserable experience. :scream_cat:

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Honestly knock backs are annoying but they are very relevant to punishing melee and casting classes for making mistakes also good for pvp.

I am a true believer that what this game really needs is to put diminishing returns on cc pve and pvp to make it easier to balance but now to whats important.

HOLY ■■■■ YOUR ALIVE AGAIN.

How about magic not being evadeable and doing the same amount if not more than physical damage? That is a crap design, and I rarely hear anyone say a word about it. Not to mention there isn’t a decent way to negate it since MDEF scaling is crap and there are not that many gears to reduce it sizeably.

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B-but swordsman are already being punished for simply existing.

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On that issue i think DEF being a flat reduction is the issue. Not so much the magic not missing it trades crits for that. As for lack luster melee damage that is more of a swordsman issue that is being addressed on Ktos, whether or not well get those changes ever who knows.

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I’d almost rather for them to be able to crit than just be completely unavoidable. Magic mobs and close combat classes? Ouch.

As for Swordsman balancing they say they are working on it, but you’re right… Who knows.

But back on the top of DEF. At low lvls mobs not being able to hurt no despite how hard they try then at high lvls everything one shotting you regardless of if your in plate or not. Very clearly displays how flawed the system is especially with more lvls on the way. At this rate gear def with be irrelevant and all that will matter are the stats on the armor and the set bonus’s.

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If you look at gear recommendations from most ToS topics or on the ToSbase Skill Simulator, it is already all that matters to most, unfortunately.

@STAFF_Max Perhaps something you guys may wish to consider thinking on, and would even help with Swordsman balancing in it’s own way. It’s a big problem for everyone though, just more so for us close combat meat heads.

(Also Staff_MaxsWife is still popping up on the drop down list for tagging… might wanna get rid of that.)

I agree with everything you’ve said. Monsters running away is incredibly annoying but whats worse is when they casually walk away back to there original spot x_x This happens to me all the time when i’m trying to bring enough mobs together to make my skill usage worthwhile. Sometimes they wont even reaggro when this happens, they ignore everything until their back in their original spot. I love to grind but in a lot of maps the lack of mob density+non aggresive mobs+mobs walking/running away really puts a damper on that. Especially as a linker because these mobs break my link and sometimes hangmans knot doesn’t even work.

I agree. they should make defence be a percentage depending on how high your defense is and what level you are… if thats what your trying to say. thats what i got from it at least.

Then they can add a “reduce physical/magic damage” stat that can stack onto the percentage and make more gear options.

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I agree that it’s totally okay to punish players that aren’t paying attention, but I think ToS takes too much control out of the player’s hands with random elements and unfair hitboxes, so even if you try, you will inevitably end up as a tennis ball bouncing against the floor and the wall. It’s good to consider the PvP function of knockbacks, because they’re a strong form of crowd-control, but monsters could use it in a more intelligent way. Just like monsters that freeze. Wait, can knockbacks be blocked with dispellers?

I’ve been busy with real life but I always check the kCBT thread :smile_cat:

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you know why combat is not mention “more”, cause it turn into a generic “this class I have never played is broken” and the next “no this other class I have never played is the one broken and mine is ok” >>> BLAH BLAH BLAH…

If I could, I would reach lvl 280 without ever hitting z or c :expressionless:

that much of a ■■■■ I give for combat…

as long as people can find something they can be happy with ■■■■ everything else and wait for PvP arena (SOON^tm) if a equally “balance” match is so wanted…

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exactly what i was getting at.