Tree of Savior Forum

Chaplain Math - Weapons

Class and Rank Cleric
#41

Thanks a lot for the data, as usual.

[quote=“krocsyl, post:38, topic:296162, full:true”]
Is there actually a dmg formula for Toy Hammer around?

Some say it’s 4 times physical attack. I don’t like to calculate with assumptions.Is it affected by defense and property attack?
[/quote]Well, if there isn’t a confirmed damage formula, we’ll need to test for one. It’s probably not affected by defense from what little data we have, but gotta test to know for sure.

Either way, it’s definitely something to be tested, as there’s more than one source saying autoattack damage from it is considerably higher than Valia/Catacomb despite Aspergillium, and despite explosion dmg apparently only scaling with physical attack.

Also, any recommendations on weapon for SPR-based Chaplain, when supporting instead of autoattacking? I guess dagger for autoattacking would be Arde?


@dark_eidous The thread clearly stated at the start that calculations were done _completely ignoring explosion damage_, you tl;dr'ed a bit too much there. Nobody's saying anything about Toy Hammer other than its base dmg, which isn't the point of the weapon.

In which r6/7 cases do Catacomb or Valia vs Devils surpass Toy Hammer though? And can the explosion attack crit/is it affected by anything other than PATK? (I assume Blessing applies)

#42

from a supporting point of view, you’d have to take the weapon with stats that favor supporting most. May it be INT, HP, Sp Recovery and so on.

Would be nice if someone owning a toy hammer would provide some test data :slight_smile:

I will consider this - right now I’m quite busy outside the game. But I’m sure I’ll get into some data in the beginning of the next month :slight_smile:

#43

[quote=“krocsyl, post:42, topic:296162”]
from a supporting point of view, you’d have to take the weapon with stats that favor supporting most. May it be INT, HP, Sp Recovery and so on.
[/quote]Is there a weapon that gives good SPR then? Or maybe a miscellaneous effect that helps the party.

#44

There might be good weapons, that are not available ingame (yet?).
I don’t know, but looking up a tos-db results in:
http://www.tosdb.org/search?gw=Weapons&us=Cleric&st-MNA=1&gby=

I realized, that my property diagrams had a little calculation error. Overall mainly small number errors.
I updated the diagrams.
+Property Attack Weapons are more favored against Dark.
+Cafrisun (5 hit chaplain) is more favored against Lightning and less favored against Poison
Valia is much more favored against Dark Devil type monsters

#45

Hmm, alright. Thanks for the reference.
The Bendras Sword might be good for SPR support then, as I do not need MATK, and it has 24 CON/SPR + 4 sockets :smile:

#46

yo nuts? I’m even saying that regarding auto-attacks toy hammer is probably the best duo the fact that this test completely ignore the explosion damage. So my answers is absolutely right regarding the best weapon for chaplain only from the point of view of auto-attacks. (excluding Lolopanther)

BTW what does it matter or not that this test includes or disregards the explosion damage from toy hammer? It does change nothing, exactly as you would think as well.

Toy Hammer    (TH) 4 / 5 Hits:

4: (Patk + Buffs**)*explo/3 = Average Dmg per Hit (ADpH) <- that silly 3 is because it procs every 3rd hit.

5: (Patk + Buffs**)*explo/2 = ADpH <- that silly 2 is because it procs every 2nd hit.

Any other weapon is:

Patk + Matk+ Buffs = ADpH <- making the world easier since Matk applies to aspergillum and you will run always with the ■■■■, so that’s the main difference between thuse to weapons. You don’t even need to consider the rest because it negates itself.

Now you can plot a graph if you are not a 5th grader and mysterie is solved.

(Patk(TH) + Buffs)*Explo/y - [Patk(X) + Matk(X) - Matk(TH) + Buff] = 0

Result > 0 -> Toyhammer wins
Result < 0 -> X wins
Result = 0 -> Holy crap you found the holy grail of equilibrium!

Patk(X) = Str + Level + WeaponPatk(X)
Matk(X) = Int + Level + WeaponMatk(X)
y = 2 (if cafrisun) else 3
Buffs** = 80 (40 Sacrement + 40 Last Rites).

i’m more or less 100% sure that Buffs will be multiplied by the exploformula instead of added because that’s how running shot works and I doubt that TH uses different mechanics.

#47

Damn im bad at maths. i wish to understand all of that. xD

#48

[quote=“dark_eidous, post:46, topic:296162”]
So my answers is absolutely right regarding the best weapon for chaplain only from the point of view of auto-attacks. (excluding Lolopanther)
[/quote]I didn’t mean your info was irrelevant to the thread fam, just that the thread’s testing wasn’t done to properly accomodate TH.

[quote=“dark_eidous, post:46, topic:296162”]
BTW what does it matter or not that this test includes or disregards the explosion damage from toy hammer? It does change nothing, exactly as you would think as well.
[/quote]Is it weird for me to assume that if explosions were accounted for, adph would be much higher? If the tests disregard TH explosion damage, then average dmg per hit would only be:

adph (without explosion) = PAtk + MAtk (+ SPR I assume, bc Aspersio scales equally w/ MAtk and SPR) + Buffs

Compared to newdmg = adph*explosion/y, it is only natural to expect that newdmg > adph, because explosion/y is obviously > 1… am I wrong? I don’t understand your problem about this tbh õ.o


Also, does the explosion really only proc every 3 hits without Cafrisun? I'd have expected it to proc one time for 3 hits, then one time for 2 hits (12 hits on 3 autoattacks, then 8 more on the following 2).
#49

I have no TH so i don’t know it’s mechanics, but i would assume that the hits are counted per attack at once and not every hit individually, at least that’s how I would reduce the cpu load. If every hit is counted individually that would just narrow down the difference between using cafrisun and not by proc every 2,5 attacks vs proc every 2 attacks.

Using Cafrisun with TH increases your adph by 3/2 = 50% compared to not using it
if every hit counts individually 2,5/2 = 25% increase in Cafrisun or decrease of the value of Cafrisun by 50% to my assumption.

And you can’t use the TH proc for adph because adph includes Matk but the toyhammer proc is based on your physical attack. You would get an error which might or might not matter in the end, since I didn’t do any calculations. (Simple said, it would overrate TH)

Maybe it’s easier to understand if I rearrange the formula with the intention “which physical damage does my weapon need to give me a better dps vs Toyhammer”

WeaponPatk(X) > Matk(TH) - Matk(X) + [explo/y - 1]*[Str + Level + Buffs] + Explo/y*WeaponPatk(TH)

which can simplified for the sake of less calculations and who really cares about +100/-100 dmg on total basic attacks.

WeaponPatk(X) > [Explo/y - 1]*[Str + Level + Buffs] + Explo/y*WeaponPatk(TH) - WeaponMatk(X) + WeaponMatk(TH)

Using my Level 200 Chaplain as example, to “beat” a +5 TH which I don’t have a Weapon with:

Under my assumption (Hardrest at every attack in which the proc occured):
[5/3 - 1]*[10 + 200 + 80] + 5/3*124 = 400 - WeaponMatk(X) + 81

Under every hit counts:
[5/2,5 - 1]*[10 + 200 + 80] + 5/2,5*124 = 538 - WeaponMatk(X) + 81

With Cafrisun:
[5/2 - 1]*[10 + 200 + 80] + 5/2*124 = 745 - WeaponMatk(X) + 81

That concludes: If you are using cafrisun, you are pretty much better off using Toyhammer, if you don’t Catacomb Club could be your best friend. (looking at it from the clean DMG perspective)

#50

[quote=“dark_eidous, post:49, topic:296162”]
i would assume that the hits are counted per attack at once and not every hit individually, at least that’s how I would reduce the cpu load.
[/quote]Well, IMC has very quickly proven to be far from the best at reducing the CPU load :sweat_smile:…

Though personally, as a dev, I’d go with a slightly higher CPU load if it meant more accuracy in calculations. In this case, by not going Cafri, if hits are counted per attack at once that’d mean one less explosion per 6 autoattacks…

Can’t you just edit the adph to accomodate matk/SPR? Assuming explosion dmg uses the same mechanics as Running Shot (and hence buffs are multiplied by the explosion formula):

adph = patk + matk + SPR + buffs + (buffs * explosion/y)

#51

TH works with consecutive attacks, if you move the count resets.

#52

[quote=“nacho.uch, post:51, topic:296162, full:true”]
TH works with consecutive attacks, if you move the count resets.
[/quote]That’s ok, with Chaplain you only need 2~3 autoattacks (depending on whether Cafrisun is equipped or not) for one explosion to proc.

#53

I believe I understand what you are trying to say. Formula for any weapon for easier dmg calculation should look something like:

“Total average DMG Per Hit (Admg)”

Admg = [Explo/y+1]*[Patk + Buffs] + Matk + SPR + Apersiondmg*Attribute + 10/y*(Blessinglevel + Attributelevel) + (10/y-1)*Buffs

y = 10 / Hitcounter
Explo = 0 unless ToyHammer = 4

That formula should be fairly accurate for the theoretical max dmg for any weapon, neglecting defense and other stuff. Now you can cancel everything out that is equal for every weapon and the result be:

adph* = [Explo/y+1]*[Patk + Buffs] + Matk

The damage you deal provided by the weapon while all Buffs are online, the Rest of the damage is constant regardless of the weapon.

1 Like
#54

Stats, LEVEL, Aspersion Base (from Skill LVL), Buffs like Sacrament / Last rites, Blessing are the same for all weapons in our case. Some of those parameters might only be relevant for the explosion.

I ignore in this post, that a weapon gives slight SPR bonus.

I tried looking up test-videos, but only found one which could help finding the actual formula, but it’s really hard to read numbers on 360p videos.

Now the formula is more (ignoring property weaknesses) with ‘y’ being number of hits.
Amdg = W.Patk + (W.Matk + W.Property Attack) * (1+ AspersionAtt%) + (y-1) * W.Property Attack + Explosion * y / 10
But the most important thing is to find out how exactly ‘explosion’ is calculated.
What is the base damage and how do properties / buffs apply?

1 Like
#55

How to get 5 hit as a chaplain? I thought 4 is the highest hit a chaplain could reach (Regular hit + cafrisun + sacrament + last rite)

#56

+Aspergillum

/20character

#57

I added SPR more because some weapons do have a slight SPR bonus, shouldn’t be too big of a difference though.

And overall we’re still working assuming TH’s explosion is 4 * PATK * buffs after all. Do you know anyone with a TH who could provide test data?


@krocsyl we’re not sure of how Explo works, but whether it’s like Running Shot and buffs get multiplied by it or not, it’s still one more line of attack every few hits. So I think Blessing’d at least apply addictively to it, if we didn’t factor that in we’d have an underestimation of the damage.

In particular, if it does work like Running Shot and buffs get multiplied, that could be pretty huge.

#58

You guys have to stop beliving so much the maths, you just can work whit the data given but there are things that you will never know till use the weapon.

As a example, someone was talking about the dagger hit stop making it slower. Well unlike arde and karacha Venom doesnt have that hit stop, it is nowhere told, you will never know if you dont have the weapon or someone whit experience tells you.

Play the game and learn urself, im seeying so much wrong and missleading on this tread that sadness me.