Cataphract Calvary PvE

[Nicciv]

Hi it’s me again the person who likes to make suggestions for fun.

Cataphract is a really fun class with some good abilities, some great abilities and little to no interaction amongst these abilities. I saw patch notes for KtoS are giving this class some QoL enhancements and buffs: Steed Charge 2x range (good cause the range on this thing for a charge is miserable) and Doom Spike no longer cast time (great). However, the class itself still feels unlinked.

I like to make suggestions that encourage you to use abilities. With that in mind its mainly just ideas I think could make a class more fun. PvP is a balance nightmare as is so none of these suggestions consider pvp as the system itself is borked and needs to be fixed.

Skills

Impale
This ability is fun, interesting, somewhat useful and probably frustrating in PvP. Move it to circle 2 (change how it scales accordingly though Im pretty sure its just a 1 point dump as is). Id suggest just removing this ability all together but it is cool so and neat and funny so Im loathe to recommend removing an ability such as this.

Flank - Circle 1 - 15 ranks - Pierce - No Overheat - 20s CD - 1x Hit
Pierce enemies with your spear for %attack damage. Always critical when attacking enemies from behind.

Steed Charge
I personally like this ability. However, I’d suggest implementing a new status called Trample: Reduces enemies AoE defense by 1. Trampled enemies receive 100% of attacks as if from behind. Synergizes with Flank and helps rogues and others (Corsair?) that benefit from attacking enemies from behind. Plus reducing AoE defense is never bad. Steed Charge Tramples all enemies hit for 1 + 1 (min 2, might need max as well) second per rank.

Trot
Who doesn’t like Trot? See attribute suggestions.

Earth Wave
I personally love this ability, its scaling could be better but I had some attribute suggestions to go with the above changes.

Doom Spike
Good ability

Rush
I like it, not much to change really.

Attributes

Add enhance damage for flank

Trot - Warsteed - 10 Ranks - Circle 2 - Requires Trot 3
While Trot is active deal 1% of your physical attack per attribute rank to Trampled enemies near you every 2 seconds.

Momentum - 3 ranks - Circle 2 - Requires Steed Charge 3
You gain 100% of your movement speed per attribute rank as attack damage for 8 seconds after using Steed Charge.

Earth Wave - Blunt Force Trauma - 3 ranks - Circle 2 - Requires Earth Wave 3
Trampled enemies knocked down by Earth Wave are left bleeding for 4 seconds plus 1 second per attribute rank.
Bleeding damage is proportional to characters physical attack.

Flank - Quick Strike - 1 Rank - Circle 3 - Requires Flank 6
Increases the number of hits by 1.

Anways back to the game, be safe everybody.

[mrshadowccg]

I really doubt that at this point they’d be adding new skills/attributes.

I feel like what Cata really needs is more skill % and/or overheats on the damage skills (aside from Rush).

I mean, even Rodelero C1, which is same rank as Cata, has 3 overheats on Targe Smash for a total of 1257% damage while Earth Wave is 430% and Steed Charge is 272%

Earth Wave needs to be made true multi-hit and given double the damage % or an overheat. Steed Charge needs tripple the damage % or three overheats. Doom Spike could use around 30-50% damage increase along with the removal of cast time.

[Nicciv]

One of my concerns is that if they make Catapracht just becomes base as strong as other none mounted classes it just becomes everyone is Catapracht cause max trot is pretty darn awesome. I don’t think you can overlook companion mounting as a feature in and of itself. Nor do I think you can just look at the percentages alone, Im no expert on the damage calculations in this game which is why I avoid making number suggestions typically but don’t Lances already have higher base attack than what a Rodelero would have? Thus if Lancer matched Rodelero in % it would do considerably more damage. At least that is my understanding. Isn’t the AoE size on Earth Wave considerably larger than Targe smash as well? Lots of factors in the number game other than taking two abilities and comparing the percent damage imo. Like I said I think Earth Wave scaling could be better and Steed Charge is almost pointless as a damage ability which is why I wanted to suggest it as more of a setup tool.

Yeah I dont think any of this stuff would get added. But I don’t want to make suggestions about more overheats or more damage as this is how they are likely to buff any class at the moment. I just like to make suggestions that might make the game more fun (to me atleast). This stuff is mostly for fun for me while Im waiting for stuff to spawn lol. I think we will see the types of buffs you are speaking about eventually anyways, so no real reason to suggest it.

My hope is that maybe someone reads some of this and goes “Well maybe we can do just more than buff damage and charges”. It is unlikely as Im sure they are already working on a whole lot of stuff. Plus with Rank 9 coming (which I disagree with, sick of games releasing new content when the base game could be drastically improved, but the majority of communities want) they just aren’t likely to have the time to look at and do a pass on lower circle classes to improve the feel of the class as a whole.

[mrshadowccg]

It would be very, very hard to overbuff catas to the point they would surpass non-mounted classes.

Don’t get me wrong, I like your suggestions, but I feel like Cata also needs a very special attention on their skills damages.

I would be much more inclined to use Earth Wave if it caused bleeding on ememies (for additional damage on Skyliner). But the damage of the skill itself would still be laughable.

Isn’t the AoE size on Earth Wave considerably larger than Targe smash as well?

Yes it is, but Targe Smash not only has much more skill % but also benefit greatly from Murmillo’s Cassis Crista attribute which will make it one of the strongest AoE skills of swordman tree.

don’t Lances already have higher base attack than what a Rodelero would have?

I assure you that if you take Cata3 -> Lancer, your damage will never compare to the damage of a Rodel3 -> Murmillo. Crush + Quintain makes a good combo because of the 150% additional damage to Quintain while Crush debuff is up, but it’s still only two skills while Murmillo will have almost all skills with skill factor past 2000%.

Anything you take with Cata 3 will seriously gimp your damage badly when compared to other rank 8 options.

Earth Wave doesn’t combo with anything and the damage is so marginal that later on it becomes even less useful than Spear Throw, and yes, Spear Throw is mostly a filler skill.

Steed Charge is a plain horrible skill. Even with 2x range increment it won’t be any better at all.

I have a Cata C3 and at rank 8 the only Cata skills I have in my shortcut are Rush and Trot. Other skills aren’t worth using atm (maybe Doom Spike will be in future without cast time).

[Nicciv]

Wasn’t talking about combining Lancer with Cata but the weapon type Catas and Lancers and Goons have (Two-Handed Spears technically not lances). But yeah Murmillo definitely scales Rodelero higher than Cata is scaled with Lancer. Like I said all the suggestions weren’t to make Cata necessarily stronger but to give it more things to do, more interesting choices or options. I agree it needs buffs outside these things but how high those buffs need to go Im not willing to suggest cause Im not intimately knowledgable about the underlying formulas in this game.

In the case of something like adding the status effect trample it was more to give the class an identity or solidify its identity, than to buff it. Even if that identity isn’t powerful from a role playing standpoint or thematic standpoint trampling things as Calvary just makes sense (and to a degree you have that feeling with knockback, but how many people just turn that knockback off?)

When I said an ability is good or fine I mean mechanically (such as how they are cast, animations, execution, etc), not numerically. In the case of something like Steed Charge I like how it functions mechanically , but it is not strong enough. In fact I think in terms of mechanics and execution most Catapracht skills feel good (though the delay after using Steed Charge feels brutal to me, not sure if it is an animation thing or just how it feels to me personally). Earth Wave in particular looks really cool to me, it just deserves the nickname tickle wave cause its scaling needs to change somewhat. When you said you think Steed Charge is just a plain horrible skill is it because you don’t like the numbers, or you just don’t like how it is as a skill at all? Cause I personally like how the skill functions and it feels cool to me to use, it just doesn’t feel useful. Like I still use it just cause its “fun” for me to use it.

Mainly with every class I’ve played so far the game feels like it lacks any real depth to its classes and attributes outside a few edge cases. Most classes feel like individual skills mashed together in hopes of an identity. Classes don’t feel like classes to me, they feel like skill selections (In the case of some classes you are grabbing them solely for 1-2 skills).

[leowow]

Mainly with every class I’ve played so far the game feels like it lacks any real depth to its classes and attributes outside a few edge cases. Most classes feel like individual skills mashed together in hopes of an identity. Classes don’t feel like classes to me, they feel like skill selections (In the case of some classes you are grabbing them solely for 1-2 skills).

But thats exactly what tree of savior is. U can’t expect a game with 80 classes to have the same depth as a 4 - 20 classes game for example. But i agree that some of them really need an upgrade. It seems u just start feeling the class at circle 3, and for that reason, i believe EVERY C3 should have greater benefits in it’s attributes to make the class unique.

About synergies, i believe more classes should go down the path of murmillo for example, the pelt/hop/rode attributes are really well designed in my opinion, cause they give u options to build up ur character. Imagine the same for lancer for example, some bonus damage for mounted skills from cataphract or even hoplite. That is exactly what rank 8 + classes need right now, better synergies, otherwise we gonna see new weapon types and the same skill restrictions screwing everything up.

[Nicciv]

But thats exactly what tree of savior is. U can’t expect a game with 80 classes to have the same depth as a 4 - 20 classes game for example.

I disagree with this, mainly because I don’t adhere to the concept of quantity ever matches quality, specifically in entertainment. However, that could just be a philosophic difference. In case of depth I might have come off wrong. I don’t want depth in the sense of more skills or even necessarily more complexity. Depth was probably the incorrect choice of word and should probably be coherency or unity within class kits. I certainly do expect every class in the game to be good to an extent and enjoyable to play, otherwise they should not be in the game.

Just to be clear I enjoy Tree of Savior and am not hating here. I think the game is fun I just see more potential in it and it can be frustrating seeing messages like “Don’t go that class, you’ll gimp yourself”. I actually like what IMC has done and don’t have many problems with them outside what I feel is rather 1 dimensional class design in many cases.

But i agree that some of them really need an upgrade. It seems u just start feeling the class at circle 3, and for that reason, i believe EVERY C3 should have greater benefits in it’s attributes to make the class unique.

I agree here. C3 investment rarely feels rewarded imo. Many classes need strengthening at C3 (but at the same time I don’t want to see C1 and C2 investments become impossible where its either go C3 or don’t, though this could be asking to much and if it is the price for making C3 classes strong in and of themselves without need of other classes to make them good I’d pay that price)[quote=“leowow, post:6, topic:365292”]
About synergies, i believe more classes should go down the path of murmillo for example, the pelt/hop/rode attributes are really well designed in my opinion, cause they give u options to build up ur character.
[/quote]

In some ways I agree, in others I disagree. While I like the buffs Murmillo gives and I like the attributes, I believe classes should function without need of future classes. If I want to go Rodelero3, I don’t want to feel forced later to go Murmillo just to gain more damage on a skill I already have, though again this could be asking to much. One thing I disagree with is the sheer amount of power you can gain through going Murmillo (150% skill attack damage is quite significant atleast from my basic understanding, I could be wrong though). I think some of that should have been shifted to the classes themselves (through attributes if need be or more interesting choices) and the sheer numeric buffs Murmillo gives to other classes should have been smaller. Again just an opinion and Im sure some people feel quite differently than me about this.

I am just of the opinion that a class should inherently function and be strong (especially any class you invest C3 in past your base class, though base class strength is a whole different topic).

[penetrosity]

Actually, if you’re ambitious enough to make this many classes, I expect more depth through interactivity and synergy between classes.

A good example is (old)pyrolinker, cryochrono, RogueHackapell, Cryo’s +% lightning damage, etc. Little things like attributes or the skills themselves that allow for more interesting combinations either in one character, or multiple that interact extremely well together. I don’t mean things that are so cut and dry strong across the board like Pass either.

A good examlpe of something almost everyone I know who saw the first trailer/info before closed beta was really into was the idea of being able to do things like cast Rain, and anyone using a lightning spell would either hit more targets (Rain reducing AoE ratio/Increasing Target count but only for lightning skills) or doing more damage. Those small but meaningful interactions can create very meaningful depth where it wasn’t before.