Pardoner mdef same as aspersion are now increasing values based on SPR, no SPR = CRAP increase.
Wow, so at 103 SPR:
level 10 aspersion only gives +70 defense
level 5 Increase Magic Defense only give +61
Somehow that still seems rather small for a rank 5 skill like the Pardoner’s Increase Magic Defense, especially with the new damage scaling.
And also especially considering that Barrier gives a +680 magic defense boost at level 5 (as seen in the video).
Those skills are simply just bad now :
At level 5, MDEF Increase formula is MDEF: +(0.85*(SPR^0.7)+42)
At level 15, Aspersion formula is PDEF: +(2.09*(SPR^0.7)+48)
At level 10, Aspersion is PDEF: +(1.39*(SPR^0.7)+38)
(For example full SPR you get 374 SPR, SPR^0.7 = 64)
While Barrier level 5 is MDEF: +(SPR + 0.5 * MDEF + 130)
Barrier’s formula and scaling are just better.
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Normally Pala c3 wont invest much in SPR, that’s why i think they didn’t made it be like other skills that you normally put SPR into priest+chap or priest+any or priest+pardoner which are the common combos.
Maybe.
But in my opinion it’s pretty dumb to make classes based on SPR scale so badly. Your character is supposed to be mostly SPR, but even full SPR your buffs will be bad. Only Priest’s Blessing scales well.
you are not supposed to avoid all dmg with any char, that is why they made the mitigations harder to get, overall i’m not that mad about this defensive change as i am with wizz class overhaul to most builds.
And yet you have several skills who give immunity (like Counterspell, Ausrine…). Don’t say it’s not supposed to be done when it’s not the case.
Also, the whole point of a buffing/support class is to protect/strengthen your party. If your buffs can’t even make them more resistant, what’s the point of choosing this support/defensive class ?
Especially since Pardoner’s Increase MDEF had correct cons already: the skill had a high cooldown (skill lasts 40ish seconds, the cd is almost 90s long), and the buff didn’t scale that amazingly to start with. It only gave a few hundreds MDEF, it wasn’t an OP defensive buff at all, it was actually well balanced.
Aspersion I can understand changing it from % to flat. But it’s incredibly low. Imagine you’re level 500-600, you have 600 SPR, your Aspersion 15 will only increase the party’s PDEF by 231. 15 skill points to get such a low PDEF boost at such a high level isn’t bad, it’s useless.
There’s a difference between making a skill less good/OP and simply making it useless. It’s especially bad when the class’ whole point is to buff the party and keep them alive.
Now, sure, it’s different because mobs don’t hit as hard… but 200 PDEF is still really low.
Earlier you said:
The problem is that even with SPR the increase is terrible. It’s worthless.
With 600 SPR, your Aspersion 15 gives ~231 PDEF.
With your base 7 SPR, your Aspersion 15 gives ~56 PDEF. You invest 600 SPR but you don’t even have a 200 PDEF difference in the end… It’s not even worth leveling the skill unless you’re Chaplain.
Aspersion increase goes more for DMG for the chaps, not the “def” it gives. you can’t have an UBER DEF + UBER DMG increase for the most common P3 chars next circle.
I agree that the Mdef from pardoner is not that good with the cd it has and duration but now you have mdef in most items so you won’t need that much more mdef, i would suggest to lower cd or make it last longer that it is right now.
Aspersion may have a damage component, but it always did, even with the percentage DEF boost. Aspersion has a single hit long cooldown, too; its main purpose is the DEF boost, NOT the attack. Aspersion’s defensive value is even more important because it’s a buff that Pardoners sell. At its current values, players shouldn’t buy Aspersions from Pardoners because it just has no value. (I met a few people who bought out of habit and realized it wasn’t helping.)
And not everyone is built to use Aspersion for offense either; it’s not like Chaplain is a requirement.
In the old atk-def damage calculation, an absolute amount reduced damage by the DEF value straight-up. Now, the new atk/def damage calculation is a scale, so adding a fixed amount to DEF has diminishing returns with larger attacker ATK and target base DEF values. Something like +61MDEF is just noise when, say, MATK is around 1500 and MDEF is 1000.
My original point was that the values scale in such a strange way relative to all the other skills post-apocalypse. If the skill calculations are intentional, you might as well remove skills like Increase Magic Defense altogether, because that skill does JUST ONE THING and that one thing is now irrelevant.
Based on the rough formula they described in Dossier 2:
damage = (% increase factor) x attack x min {1, log10 ((attack / (defense + 1))^0.8 + 1)} + (+ increase)
Let’s calculate some example damage differences for Increase Magic Defense bonus of +61MDEF from a basic attack with no additional damage.
-
1000MATK attacker, 1000MDEF target:
1000 * log(1 + (1000 / 1001)^0.8) = 301 damage -
1000MATK attacker, 1000MDEF target, +61 MDEF:
1000 * log(1 + (1000 / (1001 + 61))^0.8) = 291 damage
That +61MDEF saved you 10 damage, or 3.32% of the original hit.
-
2000MATK attacker, 1000MDEF target:
2000 * log(1 + (2000 / 1001) ^ 0.8) = 875 damage -
2000MATK attacker, 1000MDEF target, +61 MDEF:
2000 * log(1 + (2000 / (1001 + 61))^0.8) = 850 damage
That +61MDEF saved you 25 damage, or 2.85% of the original hit.
-
1000MATK attacker, 2000MDEF target:
1000 * log(1 + (1000 / 2001)^0.8) = 197 damage -
1000MATK attacker, 2000MDEF target, +61 MDEF:
1000 * log(1 + (1000 / (2001 + 61))^0.8) = 193 damage
That +61MDEF saved you 4 damage, or 2.03% of the original hit.
Considering the % … it is a bit low for low dmg, but on high… could be at least not that meaningless, i would make it be cd long as duration.
for aspersion, can’t have a dmg and def, plus imba if chap dmg from aspersion all in same skill, seems to OP.
Aspersion has always been defense. The damage was a nice-to-have. It had a lot of restrictions - high cooldown, using a reagent (holy water), and also the fact that it consumes a buff slot. Nobody used it for attack. Chaplain doesn’t use it for attack either; they have a skill that uses the Aspersion attack value to determine damage, but it doesn’t cast Aspersion each time.
If a player uses Aspersion offensively in its current state, parties will eventually get angry that the defense buff pushes out another more desirable buff (like Blessing) when the buff count is full.
As of right now, even you must agree that Aspersion no longer stands on its own; it is a skill that depends on another skill, specifically a Chaplain skill. Its basically a passive skill that enhances Chaplain damage.
It is a “filler” with some def (not much).
the one that it is not good is pardoner mdef one, no real use of points, pardoners are not even good to sell anything good now i guess…
I’m actually kind of curious how much damage you think Aspersion does.
I haven’t ever seen people talk about how they use Aspersion for attack. Am I missing something? Is its attack that potent? It seems pretty inconsequential when I aim an Aspersion at monsters.
It does, for me, around 2800-3400 dmg (250 lvl with 50dex, 20con, spr rest. and gives me not a bad amount of def for couple mins… even without taking im chap and my aspergilum uses it to dmg, i dont find it that bad as a filler to throw if all is on CD or near end of def buff.
That certainly seems low for level 250. Combined 2800-3400 for a skill attack with a 30s cooldown doesn’t seem like an attack skill at all. What were you attacking to get 2800-3400? I’m SPR/INT and I only get about 1800 at level 278 in typical monsters at District 8 and such. Even 1 heal tile does more damage. Here, I just went in and took some screenshots to test out damage:
Attack with Blessing:
Unmodified Aspersion:
Aspersion with Blessing:
Unmodified Heal:
Heal with Blessing (the same, but double hit, that’s all):
The screenshot character is built for defense, not damage; but even so, the relative difference is visible. A 1-shot 20s cooldown like Aspersion compared to a basic Heal attack and regular auto-attack, with and without blessings.
I see what you mean - it can certainly do SOME damage, but especially with its additional constraints, it is a skill that doesn’t compare well for damage. Where it’s overpowered, if at all, is in the bonus it provides Chaplains, actually. If it gives that much additional damage each hit, then yes it is overpowered. But the problem isn’t Aspersion, it’s the Chaplain synergy with Aspersion.
Priest’s Exorcise disappears after first hit.
Makes it really hard to cast Magnus Exorcismus 
EDIT: Nevermind, number of hits = skill lvl.
There are some other classes sinergies that are very good ones, like oracle change pala convert, FF+Necro curses…
I was dealing tests in the 240 HG mobs, so they are harder than regular mobs i test all stuff there to see the dmg against same mob couple times to avoid min-max differences and so.
Aspersion as it is alone deals not a crap dmg, not a good dmg, but also buffs some def, if they remove the dmg they can raise def or other way around raise dmg and lower def and so keep sinergy with chap dmg, but improving non chap dmg or def without lowering the counterpart side of skill alone, would be pretty OP.
Pre-patch i used lvl 4 and lvl 5 magnus, with some int it was the best aoe possible i could have, but now with spr increase in formulas… idd rather have only AA to worry about (plenty of buffs to keep up) cuz if not i end up with 40 buttons to be pressing like mad to keep the pace up.
I agree skills need balance and tradeoffs; however, I am trying to demonstrate the tradeoff is already there with the limitations that exist. The one-shot, high cooldown, reagent consuming, etc. limitations.
As it is right now, the damage matches the pre-patch damage values; however, the Defense bonus effect is essentially not a factor post-patch, and that’s what a lot of people expect from Aspersion. You are using Aspersion as a damage dealer, and see the defense as a “nice to have”. I believe that most people see Aspersion as a defensive skill, with damage as a “nice to have”. (I could be wrong - others will chime in if I’m way off base.)
Multiple effects is not bad for skills. Many skills have dual-use and multiple skill synergies. Heal, for instance, does good damage AND gives HP. Conviction enhances Smite. Blessing enhances Heal damage. All class trees have skill synergies of different sorts.
My other point is that the new damage calculations mean defense has diminishing returns. If you get +100 additional defense, you don’t take 100 less damage. Similarly, if you get +200 additional defense, the percentage drop in damage doesn’t scale to match.
There is no “OP” in making a better scaled defensive boost to Aspersion. It’s already a very limited combat skill, and its defense boost is noise on the same level as Pardoner Increase Magic Defense. I’m not saying that we should make the defense bonus ridiculous, but the defense bonus of both Increase Magic Defense and Aspersion does not seem to scale properly with the new atk/def damage formulas. Others have chimed in that the problem is with the scaling of the defense boost, not the fact that they want Barrier-levels of defense boost.