Tree of Savior Forum

Need Your Help to Achieve my Wizard class goals *Long Post on Game Design*

Class and Rank
#1

Hello everyone.

I’m excited to participate in the beta as much as everyone else! Currently I’m looking into figuring out a reasonable build for a pvp wizard and I’d like to discuss my philosophies on game design/pvp design. I’ve been an MMO gamer for over 13 years now, and I just want to say that I LOVE what I’ve seen in ToS. But I feel like many areas are unclear for me and I’d like some clarification (scroll to the bottom for my main 4 questions, otherwise keep reading! I apologize for any typos I may have made, wrote this in a clinical research lecture!)

What do I WANT out of my character?

  1. Crowd-control (stuns/slows/sleeps etc)

Seen these in the skill trees for wizards and elementalists, pleasantly satisfied. These are MANDATORY for squishy mages to survive, reposition/setup their burst combos.

  1. AoE/Burst damage (duh! Why else would I play a mage :grinning: ?)

  2. Dynamic gameplay

What do I mean by (3)? Well, after my class has expended its cooldowns, how long would I have to wait before using a different spell. How many auto attacks would I need to land? Auto attacks would tie into my next point. Given the high SP costs, and the limit to potions, what would be the optimal way to go, if such a path could even be theorycrafted at all?

  1. Kiting

Ideally once my SP is expended or once my main abilities are on cooldown, I will need to be attacking and kiting. This is in both pvp AND PVE and this is very important to me. Mages in ANY game are squishy classes, and the need for kiting is important, the best mages should be distinguished by their ability to land their combos and make effective use of maximizing the distance between themselves and the enemy.

With all this in mind, I have to consider a couple of points, namely:

A) SP cost
B) Stat builds (SPR or CON for survivability)?

Why are these two topics important to me?

As a mage, in many mmos you cycle through spell rotations and try to keep your distance. For those of you familiar with WoW, I’ll be making a comparison between the playstyle of a Frostmage and what I want out of the wizard class here. The frostmage class contains many elements that I believe are NECESSARY for mages in pvp. For those of you who aren’t familiar with the Frost mage, You spam frost bolts (your main attacking skill, short cooldown) and it slows with a chance of freezing them. Once they’re frozen you’d frost bolt + ice lance to trigger the talent called “shatter” which explodes the target for a 200% crit two times. This is an insane amount of single target burst, and you keep them perma-slowed. The downside to this is that you cant move while casting, so if they gap-close, you’d have to use some form of crowd control, teleport away and reposition.

This is different from what I’ve seen in TreeOfSavior and that’s GREAT!!

I’m not a fan of super spammy spell-rotations because if there was an optimal rotation that people cycle through all the time, then the game would become very one-dimensional. The fact that there are LONG cooldowns counter-balances this. Also with all of the different class extensions, you’ll always have a different spell to use while the others are on cooldown, so you can ALWAYS DO SOMETHING. But then the problem arises -> you run low on SP, now what? In ToS, I’ve been told if you spec SPR (skill point regen?) you will sacrifice survivability of a CON mage and just get nuked down really quickly. But if you dont have SPR, you wont be able to cast more than a few spells before going out of “mana” and therefore unable to fight.

So what did WoW do right with the frost mage? What where those good ‘elements’ i was talking about?

  1. Crowd control in the form of a sleep type skill/polymorph/Petrify/Stun

  2. Ranged abilites with slows and kiting

  3. Good mana costs and ways of regenerating mana outside of mana potions (potions are not usable in arena in WoW) but not broken to the point where you can cast an infinite number of burst spell rotations.

Inside PVP how would a mage be able to cast a reasonable amount of spells? If I went for a cryomancer/wizard/elementalist specc’d build, I’d have slows and CC but how long can I spam ice bolts before I go out of mana? Ideally I want to set up to burst them with heavy hitting spells. If I’ve done this, then I’ve done my job in the fight. But if I run out of SP because they tanked most of my hits, then I just get blown up. What’s my way around this? PVP mages from the previous CBT, maybe lend me your thoughts on the matter!

Also, considering that I do want to go for a PVP oriented build, but that ToS is highly based on exploration, leveling, grinding and killing bosses. Would a Wizard/Frost/Elementalist skill build still work effectively in PVE For grinding, or would I have to respec? Is respecc-ing even possible currently or should it even be allowed? What are your thoughts on the matter, because if there ARE NO RESPECS how would I transition from pve into pvp?

One thing I like about this game is how even the AoE Elementalist skills coupled with wizard + cryo OR pyromancer skill trees is VIABLE for grinding! The level of complexity and possibilites with the skill builds is crazy! I LOVE IT! However, with that being said, I haven’t seen a wizard + cryo + elementalist spec yet. Is this just suboptimal when compared with pyromancer? Do people just sacrifice the power of slows/freezes for the chance to just 100-0 burst people as quickly as possible before running out of SP? If that’s true would you guys recommend I ditch the idea of going wiz-cryo-elementalist in favour of pyromancer for the burst before going OOS (out of SP)?

I know this post has different questions posed in different areas, so I guess I’ll try and summarize here

  1. Is the Wizard-Cryo-Elementalist build viable in pve + pvp? I haven’t seen one yet, would that be because of SP costs being so high that it’s better to try and 100-0 burst someone before you run out of SP?

  2. Is the above build in (1) okay for leveling up as well as pvp, or are there respecs available with in-game gold that I can purchase?

  3. How do mages counteract the issues with SP in PVP, and even in Grinding? Mages seem to run OOS (out of SP) and have to auto attack for years, is there a way to mitigate this problem aside from spamming sp potions off-cooldown? Can the high spell cooldowns be counter-balanced with lower SP costs on some of the spells?

  4. Are there enough abilities for mages to kite back and auto attack until they get a major cooldown they can use to set-up a burst combo? Is there even a point to auto attacking in pvp? Is it dynamic and how can it be made to be more dynamic?

Thanks for the read! Look forward to discussing this with you all!

2 Likes
#2

I decided to stop reading after I saw WoW things, but I will answer what I can.[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]

  1. Is the Wizard-Cryo-Elementalist build viable in pve + pvp?
    [/quote]Yes.

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]
I haven’t seen one yet, would that be because of SP costs being so high that it’s better to try and 100-0 burst someone before you run out of SP?
[/quote]High cost, high cooldown, high damage. Normal burst stuff.

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]
3) How do mages counteract the issues with SP in PVP, and even in Grinding?
[/quote]You can use potions on PvP now. Not sure if IMC will keep this tho.

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]
Mages seem to run OOS (out of SP) and have to auto attack for years, is there a way to mitigate this problem aside from spamming sp potions off-cooldown? Can the high spell cooldowns be counter-balanced with lower SP costs on some of the spells?
[/quote]Aside from potions you can use bonfires. You need to sit down a little but it recovers your SP really fast. Some skills don’t get much benefit from having high levels, so you can keep them low to save some SP, yes.
SPR increases SP regen and max SP, but you can’t become independent just with it (or at least will lack damage and tankiness for it)

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]
4) Are there enough abilities for mages to kite back and auto attack until they get a major cooldown they can use to set-up a burst combo?
[/quote]With your build, you have Energy Bolt, Earthquacke and Ice Bolt with rather low cooldowns and CC to stall.

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]
Is there even a point to auto attacking in pvp?
[/quote]If you don’t have anything else to do, little damage > 0 damage.

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:1, topic:65995”]
Is it dynamic and how can it be made to be more dynamic?
[/quote]Pick less bursty classes and more DPS classes…

Sorry, but sometimes you just sound like you want your Wizard to be good at everything, which should not happen.

#3

You wouldn’t get all you want but I might have something to offer. Let’s do some fun theory-crafting.

For you to deal high dps in PVP, you wouldn’t want to be a Pyro. Pyros are PVE-oriented (they got many land-based spells that require enemies to be dumb enough to stand on 'em). Elementalists are cool but they have such a long cast-time that might make you vulnerable in PVP.

Cryomancers2 are easier. You’ll get plenty of tricks. Freeze your enemies and Ice Blast them. Get Psychokino2 for Swap and psychic spells. Surround your self with Ice Walls like how Elsa had fun in Frozen, Swap a group of enemies so they’re trapped, finish 'em with psychic spells. For R6 you might wanna continue the Psy path or pick Necro for Corruption debuff. This line up will be OOS quickly (Psychic Pressure keeps going 'til you’re OOS) so good luck with autoattacking.

Autoattacking is viable tho with high lvl Enchant Fire and Swell Right Hand + Swell Head for beefed up magic bolts.

#4

Oh no, that’s not what im referring to. Squishy classes can get one shot, so I want to be able to CC and Kite back with my spells so I can setup my burst combo before getting one shot. The whole combat mechanic gets complicated, lemme link you this video here ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbgbYHyc__E . As you can see in this link, the mage in question gets obliterated in seconds before doing anything meaningful. So this poses 2 questions

  1. What could they have done better?

  2. If i was a wizard specc’d as a wiz-cryo-elementalist in this scenario, would I have been able to contribute more to the fight, or would I have been instantly deleted like this guy in rounds 2 and 3?

#5

This is something I was thinking too! The enchants make auto attacks a lot more potent, I was wondering if there was a talent that lets you regenerate a flat amount of SP per auto attack (for example - regen 5sp for every successful auto attack you land on the target). I referenced a video in response to another person, please have a look at it and see if you can answer the same questions. These sorta things make me sad as a glass cannon user, but I cant see how he could have survived getting instantly bursted (and thus contributing ZERO to the fight)

#6

Before I start I just wanna say that I love your post! I’ve seen too many people nowadays who just mindlessly follow a popular build or just ask the forums to make one for them without even trying to make it themselves. In my opinion building your own unique character is half the fun in MMORPGs.

Definitely. Cryo’s freeze/CC effects synergize really well with Ele’s AoEs.

With Ele’s AoEs leveling is a breeze really. I’m not sure if there will be respecs in the next iCBT, but they do give out free respecs every now and then in kCBT when they make big changes.

Honestly SP isn’t the biggest issue in PvP right now, most of the time the round will be over before you can drain all your SP (Unless you randomly spam all your skills, which you shouldn’t do). The bigger problem is HP since some class can kill you really fast, this is why you’ll find some Wizards speccing CON in PvP. As for grinding, running out of SP is unavoidable really, even if you have quite a lot of SPR. SP pots are your best friend, they’re not very expensive in this game and spamming them shouldn’t be a problem. If you’re leveling in a less crowded place then bonfires can help as well.

The skill system in this game is designed to make players use the right skills at the right time instead of just spamming them all as soon as they’re off cooldown (as you can probably tell from the relatively high cooldowns and SP costs). Auto-attacking in PvP really depends on the situation. If you’re fighting some melee class and you’re confident you can kite them around while auto-attacking then sure, however when fighting against classes with strong ranged capabilities sometimes it’s better to just run and hide until your skills are off cooldown.

Oh and just a disclaimer, I didn’t play a wizard last iCBT so most of my knowledge comes from just researching the web (I’m planning to play one next iCBT), so take my words with a grain of salt.

#7

An insta-kill like that happened because the Ele there was prone to it. IMO, back me up if I miss something, Elementalists don’t shine in PVP without a partner to prevent anyone from using gap-closer on them. They simply need a longer time to cast.

Invest in lvl 15 Stone Curse to render the pesky chaser useless. It might prevent him from wrecking you (you need to predict when he’s gonna unleash). Using Ice Wall or Ice Pike isn’t effective. Then do something like Rain and Electrocute him to death. Another way to save your bum in that situation is to Swap or… well… Teleport to literally flee from him. Problem is, Mages can only do so much when the chaser executes something deadly. They can try to cast Sleep, Stone Curse, or Teleport. It’s kill-or-be-killed.

You’re not able to regenerate SP from skills unless there’s a Paladin>Oracle with you.

Oh, you might wanna get Wizard3 for Quick Cast. Elementalists are already well-versed in freezing spells. Of course, your call.o

#8

Thanks, this covers most of what I was wondering, thank you! I’m definitely going to go for my Wiz -> Cryo -> ele build, maybe spec into linker as well to make training easier, depends if they provide respec tickets/potions (ofc ill find out more about this later on). I’ve noticed in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0aKUfTjR0A that he runs out of SP relatively quickly and cant regen it, can you explain what’s going on? How did he ‘magically’ class level up just in the nick of time to get all of his hp and sp bar back to full? In any case thanks for your insight in leveling, I’m definitely gonna stick with my unique build. Hopefully I can find something that works well in most situations! Both PVP and PVE look very enjoyable!

#9

Yep, quick-cast seems almost ESSENTIAL in pvp! So many talents, i just want them all! Man optimizing is gonna be hard…tough choices to make down the road, It’ll be interesting to see how impactful having a level 10 skill is compared to having just 1 point or 5 points.

#10

Well as I said running out of SP is almost unavoidable when grinding, it also doesn’t help that she’s using basic SP potions instead of the large/concentrated ones. Her SP does regen, it’s just that natural SP regen is very slow (It ticks like once every 20 seconds in combat if I’m not mistaken).

It’s called extreme luck :laughing:

#11

Ok, I get it.

She died fast because she had no CON (only 1700 HP…) and some memebers of the enemy team were higher level than her (that Archer was lvl 135). Being a Cryo wouldn’t change anything.

Now PvP is standartized (same level and equipments for everyone), but you still want to level up your character normally to get more stat points and classes, because they mean a lot.

[quote=“Randy, post:7, topic:65995”]
Elementalists don’t shine in PVP without a partner to prevent anyone from using gap-closer on them.
[/quote]There are like 2 gap closers in the game now, on Hoplite C2 and Cataphract C1… the problem with Wizards is called “Archers”.

[quote=“Randy, post:7, topic:65995”]
Invest in lvl 15 Stone Curse to render the pesky chaser useless.
[/quote]33 seconds sounds like extreme overkill, level 6 would be more than enough to kill someone.

[quote=“Breeze_Savior, post:8, topic:65995”]
How did he ‘magically’ class level up just in the nick of time to get all of his hp and sp bar back to full?
[/quote]Check the bottom right side of the screen. He leveled up his class, which also refills your HP and SP.

#12

How does Stone Curse work actually? Does it completely stun the targets? Does it break after a number of hits like Sleep? Because if it doesn’t break and completely stun the targets it sounds very OP.

Also this person claimed the cast time takes a while, any idea how long is it?

Tosbase doesn’t seem to have any detailed info about it and I can’t find any video of it.

#13

I never played as an Ele before, but I don’t think it “breaks” like Sleep, since the tolltip doesn’t say anything. It already has a narrow AoE and somewhat melee range.

Idk how long the cast time is, but some casting skills, when leveled, can be released before the bar is full, casting a lower level version of the skill (Energy Bolt, Multi Shot and other skills are like that).

#14

Lol I was overreacting then. Then again, I’m a big fan of lvl 15 [insert skill names].
Do you have any idea on how to fight archers?

#15

I never find people on PvP queue, but what can think of is: send your Swordsman friend to them, lol.

#16

Lie down, try not to cry. Cry a lot. Usually works vs archers xD

A lot of health helps against archers, then again a lot of health helps against everything else too.

#17

I love your post, as I am a former arena frost mage myself from WoW.

I have not seen a class that has a lot of aoe crowd control that results into burst damage, we’ll see how this will work… Currently the biggest problem is that Archers > Wizards in 1v1