Uhh, you’re combining the healing and mitigation portion (they shouldn’t be). I figured out your meaning, as i’ve done theorycrafting in a ton of other MMOs.
Mitigation - The word means ‘reducing the severity of’
So in most games there would be a trinity of HP, Mitigation, Restoration, not 2.
Extending the number of hits a player character can take by restoring the health points isn’t mitigation, since it dosen’t “reduce” the damage (meaning of the word).
Some games out there have literally ZERO mitigation, and everything is dealt with through restoration (HP meat tanks, pretty much), while others limit you to timed restoration (Heeeeey 30s potion cooldowns) with you stacking mitigation (damage reduction)
TOS isn’t unique in that sense, most of the more detailed MMOs (actually only 2 really big ones left, WoW and FFXIV) out there tries (or attempts to) to form a balance in the trinity.
Mitigation normally isn’t restricted to one class, all classes, regardless of tank, healer, or dps, would have some sort of mitigation. In TOS’s case, a simple example of Archer (evasion on swift step), Rog (Direct increase in evasion), Hoplite (Finestra block, although with a downside? of reducing evasion) would be considered mitigation, as they contribute to a direct reduction of incoming damage.
While Restoration (HJEALS PLOS!11!) is currently restricted to the cleric classes, with the one sole exemption of Featherfooties.
Yeah I do realise that I’ve been tossing that word around without realising how others perceive the meaning.
What I’m talking about is “prevention of occurrence of death” (arrgh another one which I can’t find a suitable phrase). A suitable example will be like:
Player A has 5 HP, over the course of 10secs he will take 9 HP worth of damage, he can~
Increase armor by 2x, reducing damage taken by half. He took 4.5HP over 10secs, mitigates 50% of incoming damage preventing death.
Cast a shield which absorbs 5HP worth of damage. He took 4HP over 10secs, mitigates 55% of incoming damage preventing death.
Extends his health bar by 2x, making it 10HP total right at the beginning. He took 9HP over 10secs, prevents death by “??? 5 points of damage” due to his increased HP pool which reverts back to normal after the encounter.
Heals for 5HP total over the course of 10secs (can be in 2s and 3s). He took 9HP over 10secs, prevents death by “??? 5 points of damage” by balancing the incoming damage he can take as opposed to his remaining HP pools during the 10secs.
So in example 3 > Extends health bar by 2x (AKA Giving himself an overheal or temporary HP of 5). Prevents death by 'temporary hp (OVERHEAL) of 5 points of damage
Example 4 > Heals for 5 hp, prevents death by HEALING 5 points of damage
A simple method of remembering would be to think of this. REDUCTION of incoming damage = Mitigation. Any sort of tinkering with your HP levels = Restoration/Healing (even overheals or temporary HP)
Regardless of incoming source of healing (restoration). In TOS’s case, all the non-cleric classes are potion reliant.
Your explanation pretty much lays out the trinity of HP - Mitigation - Restoration/Healing
He mitigates damage through armor and absorption, then heals HP before taking the next hit.
Yeah, thanks. Perhaps I simplify it too much. Like the concept of HPS (heals per second) as long as it reduces overall DPS (damage per second) it is considered as “damage mitigation” since it “reduces the severity of damage taken overall” after negating part of the damage.
You’re confusing it. They shouldn’t be combined. Heals per second is not considered damage mitigation.
Mitigation in that case would be a shielding effect to reduce the amount of DoT taken. In the case of GW1, they had no mitigation against DoTs (besides a hard-cap of 10 ticks)
All of GW1’s mitigations are against non-DoT/degeneration hits. Either from fixed (-X per incoming attack) or percentage (-50% of all damage taken) effects.
Heals per second working against degeneration (in the case of GW1) is negation, not mitigation.
+1HP -1HP = 0 net HP is Negation
Reducing of -1 to -0.5 BEFORE it damages your HP is mitigation
With “peril to life” meaning being in danger to die, peril already has the qualification to fill the blank, and peril point/points is basically a fitting term, considering we’re talking about many points here (health points, recovery points, point of no return/demise[i.e. when a player cannot be saved, no matter the means], effective HP [i.e. HP after calculating in reduction via armor/buffs/abilities/etc.],etc.).
Let me just put it this way. Using the trinity of HP - Mitigation - Restoration
The reason why you split mitigation is this.
No matter how much restoration you have, unless it stacks into an overheal, pure restoration is worthless. (See current world bosses).
You first MITIGATE the damage, then ABSORB (HP) it, then RESTORE (HEAL) it.
You cannot directly offset RESTORE against MITIGATE because even if you could outheal the damage, as long as you don’t have the ABSORB (HP), you’re going to die. (Again, see world bosses).
No one cares if your healer or your potion can shove enough red bits up yours to give you a heal of 10 million, if your HP is only 10k and you die from a single hit of 10k.
One place where this trinity is considered seriously is Path of Exile, where healing (from lifeleech) dosen’t matter if you get OHKOed.
E-HP (effective HP) in that situation only calculates your total mitigation against your max HP (for example, having a 50% mitigation would turn your 10k hp into 20k, as it would take a 20k hit to kill you).
Once you calculated your E-HP, then you consider how much restoration you can obtain before you get chunked by the next hit.
In the case of Aukuras - If you had 500/second tick, and the next hit is incoming in 2 seconds, you have an effective heal of 1k
That would mean that your survivability is 2 hits, max
(1)A hit of 19.99k, reduced by 50%, hitting you for 9,999 on your 10k HP, leaving you with 1HP.
(2) Aukuras healing you for 1k, giving you 1,001 HP, and you dying on the next hit.
You always eat the damage first, before healing it. You mitigate the damage BEFORE you even eat it.
Right, so anyway… back to the main topic of reducing the 3rd portion of the trinity
Assuming that you do NOT get OHKO’ed (One Hit KO’ed)
If you reduce the healing available (regardless of where it comes from, clerics or otherwise, such as increasing HP potion cooldown timer)
You either cause (A) people having to take pauses between fights or (B) people dying (in the case of Challenge Mode), because incoming damage outweighs healing
You can also cause both (A) and (B) even without reducing healing, just by reducing the amount of mitigation available (increasing the amount of damage taken)
HOWEVER. Per your point > World Bosses > Manually dodge moves.
Unless you turn off all the graphics, its hard to do that. I’m running on a top-end rig here, and the animations of the WB is actually getting blocked by all the skill-spam. I’d have to turn everything off, and I don’t want to do that. MY FANCY ANIMATIONS.
Besides, even if you turn everything to RUNESCAPE 1.0 Year 2001 mode, the fancy AoEs from the boss gets turned off as well, lol.
(AKA Can’t see shit, not that I don’t want to dodge)
with the upcoming defence boost, it’s very easy to reduce incoming damage with the right set (e.g. Cloth set for Mirtis or Plate set for Zaura), which mitigates a part of the damage (4 armor parts of the same category reduce afairc 20% damage in total) and reduces the rest by providing a lot of specific defence if the upgrade&transcendence is high enough.
Additionally, one can utilize a lot of tools to improve survival,
e.g. Forecast scrolls [shows AoE of strong skills and grants +100 evasion to the whole party for 5 minutes], Aukuras scrolls [decreases accuracy of enemies if placed near them],
Barrier scrolls [great mdef boost if you’re immovable like in Bazooka stance; btw, Bazooka animation delay got recently reduced by 50% on kTest, so Cannoneers have less problems actively evading stronger nuke attacks],
Nuaele/Zaura cards [and eventually legendary versions of them],
Aspersion&Increased Magic Defense buffs from Pardoner,
Restoration scroll+Pardoner buff foods,
etc…
Yes, but that’s another issue related to the way this game is made.
Because remember, when it was actually difficult people cried they couldn’t solo everything and IMC stupidly agreed to their complaints… “Ewwww, we actually need to party and have a healer with us ! I want to be full DEX and be able to solo magical undodgeable group of mobs !”
@Nekorin
Honestly, I think IMC doesn’t fully know what they’re doing. I think the current devs lack the experience or/and the imagination.
There are other games that made it the opposite of a lot of games: the higher your level is, the less HP/defense you have.
As a newbie, you have extra of these, so fights are a bit easier for you while you’re learning how to play your character. The more you level, the lower your base survivability is and the stronger the enemies hit you. So you have to be smarter, to know your skills better, to learn when to block, to be careful, to use your own buffs, food to increase your base stats, etc…
This and your HK example are why I’m saying that IMC feel unexperienced. They’re in a pure “damages” point of view. The higher the boss or mobs level is, the more tanky they should be and the more damages they should deal. And it works the same way for the players. They keep adding new ways to improve your attack and defenses, they don’t think about adding new mechanics or ways to fight instead.
It’s not like you truly need Heals to start with in TOS.
Removing heals would remove the identity of the Cleric class, and it won’t bring much anyway since you still have those ways to increase your damages and defenses to insane amounts.
I think it’s actually the opposite: it’ll be even more of a DPS check game (kill before you get killed), making it even less interesting.
Anyway, I don’t think heals matter in this game. What matters the most on TOS is #1 damages, #2 damages mitigations (Ausrine, for example), #3 Healing. You heal when you’re “desperate”, if not, you use it to deal damages.
In a party in CM, my Sadhu may be a glass cannon, but she barely ever uses Heal. Why care when you can kill everything fast enough ? One little CC, good DPS, and you don’t even need any heal
The only thing I hate about Heal is that it’s best healing skill of the game and… it comes with your base class ? Cleric is the newbie class of the tree, they shouldn’t have this amazing healing skill right away. It should come later.
@Asriel
While the Cleric is also a holy warrior (like every holy classes), what makes them different from the other classes is the fact they can effectively support and heal their parties.
All kinds of classes can buff and have a few heals - even archers sometimes have some - but the “main healing job” goes to the Cleric tree. If there is none it indeed goes to some other magical class, but that’s different.
Note that I’m using “tree”. I’m talking about TOS’ case and the fact Cleric here is the starting class of the healing/supportive classes line. The fact other games have 5 different holy/magical classes and can give the healing abilities to a “Priest” rather than a “Cleric” is irrelevant.
games powercreep, moving away from this sort of gameplay is just a natural progression of these kind of games, people want to feel fast and do things quickly, the devs responded to the people.
otherwise this game would have died long ago if they stuck to making it too slow.
biggest example of this is path of exile, back in its early days its exactly what you would describe as a “hard game” which required lots of meticulous thinking and planning on difficult encounters, now its evolved into a speed clear fast kill fast loot killing spree, which is far more appealing to the general populace than what your saying here, the same thing is destined for ToS imo.
^ This here is where you get the point of “Healing” in ToS, you get buffed from Lv 1 and go all the way to Lv 230 without expending a single HP pot in a grind mode without dungeons.
And it’s more evident if you are already a veteran and have good gear to pass to this Alt char, you can reach Lv 300+ without expend a single pot.
This by no means is something I would call fun and challenging tbh.
Now as for buffs from shops, I think it should scale with the char Lv in some way. What I thought about it was:
From Lv 1 to 50 the buff would act as if the Shop had only 200 SPR.
From 101 to 200 it would increase to 250 SPR.
From 201 to 300 it would increase to 300 SPR.
Then hitting 301 it would unlock the full potential of the shop to use all the SPR, then again, it would go into nerf again after hitting 400+ Lv following the above pattern.
Of course, the numbers above might need rework, it was just an example and someone might come with a better solution to that.
That is the thing many miss when we talk about a class, we aren’t only looking to a single class, but the tree as a whole thing, while Cleric and Priest are the main healing classes, we can’t forget the others after, or at least a few of them, where they will boost the healing ability of the first 2.
One thing I would find interesting is:
On Priest, Mass heal instead of instant heal the allies, work as a HoT, and, while under it’s effect, the chars can’t use the heal tiles, or course we would need to rework on the healing power on Mass Heal to make that viable.
On Plague Doctor, Healing Factor could either:
– Changed to HP recover speed and the value readjusted to not become OP.
– And add an attribute that when taken/turned on it would apply to all party members but it’s effect be halved.
On Diev:
– Statue of Goddess Zemyna instead of decreasing SP cost, could be SP recovery, again, readjusted and the SP Rec Speed increased by .2 secs per Lv starting from 3 seconds (would go up to 6 secs max at Lv. 15).
– Carve World is my opinion but, would be nice to have 2 effects separated based on situation:
–> If in PvE: It would cause confusion stats (or other debuff effect we could apply there) for 3 secs every 10 secs.
–> If in PvP: The actual stats, then again, I’m not sure how it really works actually, if it does apply the whole duration during a PvP event, I think it should be lowered by 90% (I’m assuming the original effect duration is the same as the statue, 42 secs at Lv 10) and a effect CD of 10 secs or lower after the debuff fades.
I could go on on the changes to the tree but it’s too much of a hassle and I know IMC couldn’t care less about our opinions too.
Indeed, I was one of them, but not to the point where it is now.
But unfortunately for some of us, me included, who don’t want anything to do with guilds, and even people in some small guilds, would have a hard time doing anything in the way it was presented first, and even in the example I gave, why? Because we barely have any players to party with in the fields.
People now mostly login to do mainly Saalus and Raid when there are people willing to do, dungeons are only used to get that last spur of EXP to reach the Lv cap now and don’t provide any real good reward for doing it aside from minimal EXP after certain Lv.
Actually, ToS is a game that is the least rewarding in the working hard aspect, aside from Saalus for the necessary shards and Raid for the recipes.
Fields don’t give much things to incentive, of course aside from Challenges, but then again, you can only do it once a day or two.
In all honesty, I stopped caring about content now simply because IMC still trying to reach the proposed Lv cap (500) and I know content wise, this game will receive very little attention, I know that we will get more classes and probably items, but if you look at the game in a whole, that is only a small part of the content.
It’s interesting too, it could also be applied into Challenge Mode, but instead of EXP, it could change the drop rate or drop quality (the second probably better since we can increase the rate a bit with Loot Chance).
Also, with this, healer would be more necessary to at least progress a bit faster than going without one, that is, if it’s possible to go without one, since it looks like the mob would rip a group without heals in seconds lol.
