Tree of Savior Forum

A Saltstone Feud thread

Been a while I wanted to do this, but either I forget about it or I’m too tilted to make a well mannered thread.

So, the point is simple, it’s the eventual imbalances :tm: or improvements where feud could and has to improve.

1: NPC Killing.
Nowadays BMs scouts can just rush down for the entire 15 minutes of the match to kill the npc, and if you don’t guess their cloak in, they’re just gonna iframe outplay you and damage your npc anyway, to die with no consequences, and come back, forcing me to either accept a defeat or ruin my game and make me camp the NPC to prevent them from doing their 200 IQ plays.

  • Suggestion : 2 options, either make the NPC downright invulnerable, or make the ballistas actually deal damage and attack faster, with the NPC healing damage over time.
    This way it would actually take some organization and fighting to inflict such a heavy point loss on the team.

2: Kill participation.
Currently, kills have barely any meaning, you steal half of your opponent’s gems, and eventually you get MvP for 400 miserable badges, and it’s extremely easy to get your kills stolen, without you getting any credit.
I’m not playing one of the highest burst classes, so it often happens that I could engage into a long 1v1 with someone, that I prevail -or not- and someone just comes in and finishes me/them with some random attack and gets all the credit for it.

and then they complain about omG StOP KS mE when you do it to them

  • Suggestion : Give kill credit to the person who dealt most damage, even if they’re not the one who finishes them (would also stop those Zealots literally killing themselves) and share the gems, equally or not, between the 2 players that dealt the most damage.

3: Gem obtention and deposit.
Gems at the moment are rather tedious to deal with, it’s not difficult to farm, despite the ease with which people can steal them from you…
But it can get rather tedious to do back and forths because you want to “save” your gems before going into the fray, or just because you reached max stacks, especially when the NPC is getting killed.

  • Suggestion : Make gems auto-deposit at a certain number, maybe every 50 or every 100 gems, this way it saves you time, but doesn’t ruin the player killing to steal their gems.
    OR
    Just directly make gems into point, it does not store them in your inventory anymore.
    For ex ; 1 picked up gem = 1 point, and you lose an amount of points when killed, and gain when killing. The more you have, the more you lose, the less you have the more you gain.

4: Diminishing returns.
Do these things even exist? When I get CCed for 20 seconds I’m having doubts about it, it shouldn’t be fine to win fights just because of this, not because players are better, not because they have better gear, but because I just can’t play.

  • Suggestion : Give a CC immunity when someone has been CCed for over 5 seconds, maybe more.

5: Scouts.
gg

  • Suggestion : :tired:

There surely is other points, I might not be thinking about them or just not realize them.

3 Likes

Casual players are really just in the mercy of being grouped with the team with has the most strongest player.

If you’re unlucky enough to be placed in a group with just a few strong players then your only choice is to farm fast enough and don’t get killed enough to be able to get a decent amount of badges.

If only there’s an internal system that stamps strong players and make sure to distribute them equally on both teams then it would be a much more balanced content.
Like mark an even number of people with the most kills, most damage to the npc and most gems put them in their respected rank, divide them in two and place them to both teams accordingly.

2 Likes

There is no mmr system and will never have one for tos. Tbh this is not a casual player problem, geared players also need to rely on being on the stronger team who can keep pushing the frontline to the other side of the map. So it’s all 50/50. RNG based which isn’t tooooo bad. And there are ways to deal with it, aka NPC rush. I think as for now, the gemstone is pretty fine and enjoyable especially all the lags and bugs are mostly gone (for me). There are always zealot inquest Pd rushing to your npc, but what is the problem? You go rush theirs as well and whoever doing the rush gets literally nothing. The stronger team will almost always win as long as they keep the frontline pushed. Scout does not have enough time to cloak all the way from mid map to your NPC. The only time it would work is when game is close and that is where things get interesting.

That could be actually interesting but I doubt IMC is ever gonna bother.
Some system that would make teams even, to take the example of a friend, if there’s 10 cryomancers joining in, the system would make it so that there’s 5 in each team, or even use some kind of TBL-tier ranking.

But I’m pretty sure that would be too much to ask.

  1. Make him immune to status ailments. Currently, you just have to put bleed or poison on him and he’ll die without even anyone near him
  2. Make him regenerate slowly

Agreed. Gems should be shared and not given to the player that gives the last blow. And give a small bonus on death.

Yeah… Feels like you put some people with sight in a bunch of blind people and tell the latter it’s completely fair. Assassin… cloaking… behead… goodbye.

Fortunately this is not the case. Casuals can just farm gems in a corner and sometimes you won’t even see someone from the other team. I’m doing Feud with non PvP char and I’m usually fine.

Wouldn’t help much. Yesterday I did Feud with the top 3 TBL PvPers in my team… and we lost. :haha:

Doesn’t matter with bugged UI. Scout just has to run around the map and sneak from the south of the opponents’ base. View is biased and players can’t seen anyone half a screen below while the opposite is true. Just cloak when you start to see the opponents’s base and you’re fine. Even if you’re not a scout I’m sure you can snipe the NPC from below the base with AoE without anyone noticing.

Yep :frowning:

1 Like

You’ve lost but how was the score like tho? if it was a close match like say 51:49 ratio then I’d say that’s a pretty even match. Same as to what happened to my team yesterday. we lost by the slightest of margins. like 18 points i think.
What I’ve notice is that killing the npc is the most efficient way to win. That is why I feel like Feud need to equally distributes players that kills the npc.

The thing is: Scout is just broken. Completely.

  1. Hidden with no viable means of detection (unlike e.g. in Ragnarok Online where everyone could equip an Accessory with Horong Card to make invisible enemies visible again, and Maya Purple card would enable you to see enemies in Hiding/Cloaking/Chase Walk) detection in TOS is ± limited to Hunter(Hounding) and Templar(Forge)

  2. Damage bonus when attacking from Cloak (very unbalanced since you cannot anticipate when and where you get attacked from), which is not counterbalanced by weak attack power once revealed

  3. Too many status ailments and Damage over time-skills

  4. basically the only iframes in the game and put on AoE damage skills, so you’re protected from damage while dealing damage

To balance Scout in PVP content, 3 things need to be done:

  1. half hard cc duration via stun/freeze/etc (this is already announced)

  2. remove iframes on attack skills and exchange them with taking no damage (so you can still cc them)

  3. make Cloaking an essential but double-edged sword for PVP:
    increase damage dealt while in Cloaking, but decrease damage dealt by the same percentage when revealed until “Cloaking” is out of Cooldown again

That way Cloaking can be used to amplify your power for one attack, but you’ll be significantly weakened afterwards, so you have to use it strategically.

As for the NPC: just allowing Recovery skills to affect the NPC (Chortasmata, Mass Heal, Tree of Sephiroth,Cure [to remove status ailments]) would probably be enough to solve the problem of NPCs falling victim to continuous enemy onslaught by Mujahadeen-Scouts/Lancers/Plague Doctors/Inquisitors

2 Likes

I wholeheartedly approve.

And nobody cries for the random cryo-kino that just throw a random magnetic force and CC your well geared character until dead with the most braindead skill in the game?
And almost half of the classes can do nothing because of the cryo shield and genbu armor…

Yea that shlt needs to be nerfed to half aoe area or make it shorter range. Same as the fisherman’s net, reti.

I actually disagree. Was levelling an alt in NA and I had nothing but the newcomer T3 +10 event aspana with 350 full leather blues. I actually got MVP from one game and always managed to get those 2 gems per day very easily. Surely you wont carry, but you’ll do very fine even without full tier Velcos or something. SR/Ench/Cors so no shock link to abuse either.

Delete Plague Doctor. Jkjk.

:tired:

Agreed with point 1 and 4. Point 5 is unrelated to Gem Feud mechanics.
Disagree with point 2 and 3, mainly because :

  • (2) We have already seen in the past some players farm alt accounts on certain spots just to get MvP.
  • (3) It will turn into a clusterf*ck, everyone fighting for gems. Instead, i’d remove the gem drop penalty upon death.

tfw you forgot about rubric’s entity or piper’s dissonanz

Now rogue can stun us for a total of only 10.5 sec instead of 21!
It’s understandable, backstab is such a hard skill to land…

Actually that’s interesting. Increase their assassination potential (well it’s already pretty good) but at a cost.

But I think on the other side that cloaking should remain as a strategic option outside of damage increase, just an approach, a cloak for 20 seconds itself is strong enough.
Or make it a toggleable attribute, increase damage dealt on decloak but cuts duration in half, so you’d need a riskier approach.

And they’re already changing it anyways, to make it impossible to cloak in combat so I doubt they’ll change it again.

Also yes, all iFrames should be like outlaw’s rampage, guaranteed dodge. I sure love seeing all these metaslaves going for outlaw (legit saw 5 of them in a single feud after patch, while before there was barely 1) to just witness them use it brainlessly and instantly get CCed.

Actually mass heal already applies on the NPC, but even having a priest stand and camp the NPC for 10 mins mass healing him, they have too much HP and lose too much of it to make the heal truly relevant.

At least they removed the def ignore from the counter… No more 25k counter when they take 3k damage and I have 90k def. :tired:

MF is weird, sometimes the AoE is accurate, sometimes it catches me from a screen away.

And concerning reti, I main sword in pretty much everything, including murm/reti in PvP (yes even after the nerfs), and as much as I agree that the pull hitbox can be horribly retarded, I really need it.

It has a long cooldown if I miss it (honestly you can just jump) and if I do miss it, there’s nothing I can do to ensure that I’m gonna catch the target, especially when frenzied slash always warps me back…
Only hope is sprint for a mediocre 5 sec duration.

Meanwhile cryokino with 20 years of CC and no lack of defense, range or damage…

Yeah as you said, that’s already happening anyways.

Kinda is the point though. People here for the PvP will fight, people here for the badges farm, or both like I do.

Just a observation about scouts…
Can we have a balancing on linker?
Linking someone and passing 100% the damage you deal on every single target linked is too much.
As a example hunters are ■■■■■■ because if they bring their companion linkers will simply link you to your pet and instakill you because Companions now have 500k health and you probably around 60k to 100k.
Another thing thats really unhealthy is having a class that can become invulnerable for like 5seconds 2 times while damaging everyone around him. Just in Comparison, Rodelero after rebuild dont give imunity to spells on slithering anymore now its reduces the damage for like 60% or 80%(when blocks) … and dont come telling that assassins need ways to survive, 2 overhits of full invulnerability for 5s plus the annihilation invul time too is way to much resources to keep an assassin alive, even full tanks dont survive that much on some match ups.

1 Like

May I interest you in some sheriff iFrames? Cheap and trendy.
:tired:

  1. I think NPC-killing should not be removed but could use some tuning. The game mode (gemstone) be a balance between multiple, disparate objectives (collect gems, kill players, kill boss, kill NPC, etc.) is part of what it makes it more interesting than a more standard arena-type PvP mode (just kill the other team). That being said, I think that some builds have an awfully easy time putting damage onto the NPC. At the same time, I think that I am reluctant to heavily support most changes to make the NPC more difficult to kill. A lot of large-AoE classes and structure-building classes are really effective at stopping the onslaught, so I wonder if it’s moreso a meta problem than a design problem. I agree that letting people put DoTs on the NPC is annoying though.
  2. I think that kills don’t need to be ‘worth’ more in that I think that killing your opponent already does a lot to slow down the opposing team and improve your team’s chances of winning. Mostly I see this as a point that tries to address how it may feel bad to “do all the work and have it stolen at the end.” If I were to want an assist system I wouldn’t want one that cares how much damage anyone dealt, and instead give a smaller percentage of the spoils to everyone else that participated in the kill. In my experience in most games, the players that deal the most damage typically are also the players that tend to also last-hit, so I don’t believe that there is too much that is inherently unfair about the system as it is.
  3. Whether you hoard gems or choose to frequently go back is a risk-versus-reward decision that I like. That is, I like that it exists in this game mode. Maybe it doesn’t need to reward more for turning in bigger loads. Waiting longer to go back already rewards the player by leaving them with more time to spend farming. I think that auto-depositing would be bad and almost contrary to wanting kills being worth more. Killing greedy players that risk holding onto a lot of gems is a reward for focusing on fighting. If you’re particularly astute, you can seek out players that look like they’re about to go back and turn in huge stacks of gems.
  4. For most squishy classes I think that they’re generally dead the instant they’re caught in CC. CC immunity that builds up over time isn’t a particularly effective mechanism. I think what the game really needs are more escapes and iframes/dodges for some classes. This will give players more opportunities to outplay CC (which feels really good). Then, when they’re actually caught it feels like they misplayed or their opponent outplayed them. I think that’d make CC feel less frustrating.
  5. Below, I put a video showing my experience as an Assassin/Linker/Outlaw. I must admit that I think that I feel like the build is a bit on the strong side, but I also believe that such a build excels in an environment like Gemstone Feud while feeling less oppressive in other PvP like GvG and TBL. I don’t know how IMC intends to balance scouts, but they have to balance them across multiple game modes. I also think that the combination of BM and Assassin looks more oppressive than the dagger scout that I play, but I don’t have first-hand experience playing that sort of build.
    [SUBMIT] PvP & GvG Videos

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